Church of GOD misses historic opportunity to allow women as ordained bishops to the ministry
Church of GOD misses historic opportunity to allow women as ordained bishops to the ministry
A spokesman in support of women ordained bishops in the Church of God General Assembly stated that any woman exercising the gifts of the Spirit has the necessary qualifications to be an ordained bishop in the denomination
Item 8 on the Agenda has failed with a vote of 695 for and 1,061 against. #goCOG #GenCouncil
— Church of God (@COGHQ) July 20, 2016
It’s been my privilege to encourage & highlight women who say “Yes” to God even if some say “No” to them. https://t.co/oVShVBUEgX
— sandra kay williams (@S_KAY_williams) July 21, 2016
What if we still had the gifts/insights of those women who have walked away into more safe space?
— Cheryl Bridges Johns (@cb_johns) July 20, 2016
I’m confused…so do fathers never raise daughters? ? #goCOG
— Michelle Smith (@Michelle34Smith) July 20, 2016
“This woman. This daughter of Abraham…” Jesus
— Cheryl Bridges Johns (@cb_johns) July 20, 2016
Egalitarian vs Complementarian Views on women in ministry: A Combined Discussion on Tradition and Praxis
DID YOU KNOW THAT: Pentecostals were leaders in ordination of women?
Ordaining women in the ministry
What are your thoughts about women preachers?
WOMEN in MINISTRY Position paper adopted by the IPHC Council
The vote was never about allowing women the title of Ordained Bishop (which I would be ok with). The vote was about including Ordained Ministers (25 and older) to be a part of the voting block at the General Assembly. Obviously this would include women as that is the highest licensing they are permitted at this point. Again, I am ok with this although the age of 25 may be a bit young. I was hoping the agenda item would pass, but at least get the story right.
The offical measure was to open open the floor to those 25 years of age or older and an Ordained Minister or higher to be allowed to vote in the body on the floor of the General Assembly.
The author of the measure spoke to the nature of the measure and stated, “it was for voting rights, not to allow a change in bishop status for women ministers”.
As a male minister and Bishop I am not disappointed with the outcome. “By the way, my wife is an Ordained Minister in the Church of God”.
This just shows that the Church of God denomination looks at a woman as being below a man. In my experience, the women are the backbone of this organization. BTW, I was a member of this organization!
No, it is your opinion that it shows what you supposedly perceive
David Lewayne Porter, are you saying that COG female ministers up to this point have not even been allowed to vote in the body on the floor of the general assembly? Surely that is not true??? I must be misunderstanding something. Do y’all not have female delegates who vote? I am having a hard time understanding.
Anyone who is a member of the Church of God may attend the General Assembly, and may also vote. There is no such thing as assigned “delegates” from churches. Only those who are able to attend.
This, to me, is discriminatory in itself, because many are simply unable because of finances or work constraints, to attend.
When these rules were made, times were very different, as most were farmers, and could arrange to lay their crops by, or get neighbors to attend to a few chores, while they were away.
I was unable to attend, because it would have meant not only missing a whole week’s pay, but also nearly $1K for a full weeks’ lodging in Nashville, TN.
So, the rules are generally being made by those who can arrange and pay for such an excursion. The elite.
Our churches typically pay the expenses of pastor and spouse and the delegates.
That is a big issue. This would also silence the voice of our brothers and sisters in foreign lands.
Karen Lucas
Please explain your (do ya’ll not have female delegates that vote?)…
Are you not CoG? You mean ya’ll or us – you included?
I believe you are having a hard time understanding because there are two points.
1) International General Counsel – are the ones that NOMINATE persons to positions and direct in Motions and Bylaw changes. This is made up of the Ordained Bishops (age and ministry experience requirements apply).
2) International General Assembly – is the voting body that as a whole votes to Accept or Reject the NOMINATION (making them offically elected) and to Accept or Reject Bylaw Changes. This is made up of all of the Ordained Bishops, Ordained Ministers, and Exhorters over the age of 16 that preregistered for the Assembly.
Also laity and church members in good standing can be included and vote in this procedure provided they pre-register.
So the issue of their voice not being heard is only in the nomination and bylaw change procedure.
Not overall.
By the way, there was I time that I was not heard in the General Counsel.
No. I am not COG. Is this a COG page? People always seem surprised when I say I am not COG.
No it is not a Church of God page.
Just several of us on here.
Our (IPHC) voting body is also the nominating body. We have a council of the Bishops. Bishops are the leaders of our conferences. Nominees must of course meet specified criteria. At general conferences. We have one lay delegate for every 50 church members plus licensed and ordained ministers that represents the voting strength.
Sia Khan liked this on Facebook.
Harold Beesley liked this on Facebook.
Regina Vaughn liked this on Facebook.
Feminist spirit
Why can’t woman except the biblical roles for woman in the church why do they need men’s positions too. Nothing is sanctified anymore. Go ahead justify everything.
There are no male positions. Women should be allowed to serve God and his church to the same degree men do.
Please read 1 Timothy church 2 &3
Read 1 Timothy 2,3
Titus 1:5-8
Can you show me in the Bible where a woman in the church is granted authority over a man?
Karen You seem to be misunderstanding the difference between General Council and General Assembly. As an outsider it took me some time to understand as well. General Council nominates and General Assembly votes to accept or reject. Every member age 17 and up can vote at General Assembly when present. David is also right that the proposed motion did not address just women but all ordained ministers on the floor of the General Council – again that is the body that nominates. Perhaps the motion should have been split in 2 texts between women in ministry and young ministers to avoid any confusion.
Convoluted. The implications are clear.
Thank you Troy Day for taking time to clarify though. Meant to say that.
does this mean the Church of God is living in disobedience to God?
Will allowing women to sit on general council floor restore them to obedience?
We have offered before a discussion on the WOMEN in MINISTRY Position paper adopted by the IPHC Council… http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/women-in-ministry-position-paper-adopted-by-the-iphc-council/ but looking at the IPHC minutes I do not see much implication of the adopted theological principals – seems like male names in leadership only or am I mistaken? General Executive Board Members:
Resident:
Donald
Jack
Paul
Vinson
Ed
Chris
Non-Resident:
Leroy
Dan
Robert
Randell
Bob
Terry
Tommy
Derrick
John
James
Thomas
Elias
Elston
James
Ronnie
David
Bill
Frank
Freyman
Adam …
It is being implemented. It is just a matter of time and opportunity unfolding. It has not happened yet but it will. We have not ever barred women but there was an undercurrent of sexism present especially from the 30’s through the 60’s. During that time period, licensing was fairly common and women were pastoring and evangelizing but rarely were they ordained. Sexism reared its head again in the late 70’s and early 80’s during the shepherding movement. Finally, in 1996, our denomination held it’s first solemn assembly during which we (as a denomination) repented of seven sins of the past: pride, greed, racism, male domination, the elder brother syndrome, legalism and judgmentalism. Since then, we have steadily been working towards setting those things right that were wrong. It is a process that we are highly committed to. I am exceedingly thankful for and appreciative of our present leadership. I feel confident saying that we have no man in leadership (especially among the general executive council) who would not applaud a woman arriving to any of these positions. We also look forward to the day when we will have more minorities and those from outside of the U.S. serving in international leadership capacities. These will all be days of great rejoicing and we look forward to them with great expectation.
isn’t there gender dominance in the trinity?
Or is it asexual functionality?
That would be fascinating and fun to discuss, Charles. I am so sorry, but I really have to step out of the conversation. I have major deadlines this week and next week. Here is the page where you can link to and download our manual. Have fun. http://iphc.org/iphc-manual-2013-2017/
excuses, excuses we hear them evey day!!!
;). I promise I will try to engage you on it another time. Until then, maybe someone else will join in the fun. I was on vacation last week and could give this some attention. That is definitely not the case this week. That question deserves a more thoughtful response than I have time to give right now. Lunch hour over ! I appreciate the direction you are heading though…will say that.
male domination has never been stronger than now in the COG
Well said Karen.
Karen Lucas, I typed asexual and I am changing it to agender
OK, Charles Page. Sometimes these threads get sort of hard for me to find after I’ve stepped away for a few weeks at a time. So, if I can’t find it in a few weeks, maybe we can reintroduce the topic elsewhere.???
Karen Lucas eight comments up
Is it sexism or feminist? Who is causing the strife?
Is it sexism or feminist who is causing the strife?
We do not experience any strife over this issue in the IPHC, Michael Green. Did you mean the CoG? Our Conference and International leadership is supportive of women in ministry regardless of what position or title they fill. So there isn’t any scrambling for position or arguing going on. However, I think it will take a generation or two to break down the insecurities that are present among many women and deconstruct old systems and thinking patterns. You have to realize that people come into alignment under leadership almost generationally. So, some men are having to intentionally choose to mentor women and provide them with opportunity in order for change to be implemented fully. I cannot currently find a mentor in my area within my denomination who is female, still raising a family and pastoring a significantly large enough church that would require a number of administrative skills. I have several wonderful male mentors, especially as pertains to my role with church history and research for my conference. I also have a great male mentor as my lead pastor. He is very committed to developing me as a leader. However, to find a female mentor for pastoral ministry, I had to go to the Methodist church. We have a good number of female ministers in our conference but most are evangelists, local church ministers or pastor very small churches out in the country somewhere. No one is near to me. I have a wonderful mentor who pastors a fairly large methodist church in the area and answered her call while still raising a family. So, I can talk about all dynamics of leadership and pastoral care with her. I am still not confident that I am called to a lead pastoral role. So, I want to be very careful and cautious before I would make myself available for such a position and I would want to be well prepared and sure that I was fulfilling a calling from God and not from man. Leaders must be granted opportunity for mentorship and then groomed, no matter the situation. No one wants a half-baked pastor. Just as in generations past women were ignorant because they were not given opportunity to be educated – in this generation, especially within the church, some women may not be good leaders because, just like some men, they haven’t been given ample opportunity to be properly mentored and trained to develop good leadership skills…especially by another woman. Leading as a man and leading as a woman is different in some respects – especially regarding family dynamics as pertains to both childcare and elder care.
Ma’am none of this is biblical when did God give women authority over a man?
Why are you worried so much about authority? To be a pastor is to be a servant.
Why do you want a man’s role in the church and please answer my question first. When did God give women authority over a man in church.
Karen Lucas apparently there is difference between cog and IPHC in this
No difference
I do not want a man’s role at all. I do not see the office as masculine or feminine but as functional and service oriented. When did God give a man authority over all women? Did God give Adam authority over Eve? What do you think it means for women to be saved by childbearing? There is the rule (the norm) and there is exceptions and the Bible is full of exceptions. God seems to rather enjoy them.
What does it mean that eve was saved by child bearing?
Do you have authority over a man in the church. It’s not weather it is masculine or not none of what you say is Biblical but justification.
Show me scripture.
Charles it was the curse God put on women at the fall and just like men they would be saved from that curse. Has nothing to do with authority.
I think it is very biblical. Study Ephesus, the Apostle Paul and then the Greek language. Then, we can talk more. From where we are starting, I’d have to write an epistle myself. I am not meaning this sarcastic in any way. But, for you to understand the Bible as i understand it, we would have to start there before we could go further.
Ma’am I’m sorry I don’t get into theological discussion to justify someone’s desire I only like to stick to KJV discussion.
Karen, how was adam saved?
If the honorable Chairman did allow me to finish presenting my concerns, then a lot of the issues that are now flying over public media could have been avoided.
The system needs immediate revamping. It is administratively obsolete. It is a a model that does not make sense in this time. I just hope the admin. was watching the nomination exercise of the democratic party just now.
If women/ ordained ministers added to the voting block, then that will even create more confusion and inequality.
The denomination bar on women being Ordained Bishops has nothing to do with discrimination or ministers that are inferior. Historically, which of the major evangelical/ protestant denominations ordained women as Bishops? The Catholic Church does not ordained women, are their women protesting? How many churches are being planted by women recently? How does Ordination interferes with one effectiveness in Christian Ministry?
Every organization has its unique culture; a unique feature of the church of God is the reservation of Ordained Bishop for male members. Is that any thing new within organizations?
Go Aog if you are sooooo mistreated they will ordain you too and you will be happy
We believe that if is from God it will come to pass in His time not our time- patience is a virtue that is seldom practiced in this instant generation – God will see us through without dividing Our Denomination. Maybe you can pray for us but please do not proselytize .
“Mariano Gabor
Amen, amen, amen.”
“I am not leaving my post. God has sent me to stand where I am, for such a time as this.
I doubt very much that God told you to come tell discouraged women to switch to your denomination.
The COG does allow women to preach, and to pastor. There is no need to long after power in the denomination. Our task is to be faithful to what God called us to do, KNOWING THAT GOD WILL OPEN DOORS THAT NO MAN CAN SHUT.”
I am not but I am tired of the complaining and seriously if your not happy there are other denominations where everyone will be happy. I have prayed for this for 20 years but all I see is more and more discord and rude comments against us who don’t agree.
We won’t change our minds because I regard the word of God too much. For 10 years it keeps getting forced on us and we defeat it soundly let it rest and perhaps in the future if God speaks to us.
Pfffft
If going by the Word of God offends, hurts, and makes people boohoo so much, please leave.
“Jackson Vaughn Plant
I agree.
I have a wife that is an Ordained Minister in the Church of God.
I can’t back the measure because of the attitude of those that did not get their way.
We have enough people in leadership (male and female), that can’t take anything from God except an emphatic yes.
We have a generation that appears (Appears) to not be able to handle God’s “”wait”” or “”no””.
It appears we trust ourselves, our denomination, and the workings of man over God and His ability to move situations and men.
I am sure God will work and move in His time to accomplish His purpose and will.
One speaker told us one night of General Assembly “”Rest on The Lord”” and “”Praise Him””.”
“Brody
I think it is a simple case of undue expectations. Not getting the mind of God but following personal desires.”
It is easy to say “undue expectations” when we (men) are the ones allowed in the upper rung of leadership. Do we, COG, really want to do what Pentecostal leaders once did to ethnic minorities (African, Latino, etc.) and tell women to leave to join some other denomination? I realize many will argue that is different–that this is a matter of gender roles. I along with others who support women as bishops find it wrong to discriminate against race or gender. It’s more about the fact that the Holy Spirit has been poured out on both male and female. We need women in leadership just as we do men. It is not as though we do not take God’s Word seriously. We just do not interpret Paul’s letters in the same manner. My intention is not to be rude but to stand for the full ordination of women.
We don’t interpreted the same and since everyone knew that we should not be expected to change our belief because it is opposite theirs. No surprise women won’t be Bishops there fully ordained and kept from nothing.
“Drew, my brother,
You must have missed that my wife is an Ordained Minister in the Church of God.
I live everyday with the desires for women to be used to their maximum potential if men would let God do the work.
Tell me what actual biblical ministry a women can’t do without the bishop title?
Allow me;
Acts 2:16-18
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Yes hallelujah all included in ministry.
Please point out to me where the church leadership was included.
Peter, the one doing the address here, did not add the ladies to the leadership.
In Acts 11 Peter with the church elders welcomed the Gentiles into the body, but the leadership did not change.
In Acts 15 the Jerusalem Council made up of the Apostles and elders included yet again more Gentiles (Peter at the head making the recommendation) and yet we do not have recorded ladies in leadership.
So back to my point,
What actual (dreaming, vision seeing, prophesying) ministry are they bring withheld from?
I have had this conversation plenty of times with men, women, and all ages.”
“For those who are asking…
According to the “”Minutes”” of the General Assembly of the COG (TN) published in 2014, (pg 101-102) the only things an “”Ordained Minister”” may not do, which an “”Ordained Bishop”” may do, are these:
1. Assist in ordination ceremonies of fellow ministers.
2. Serve as District Overseer, or in other official capacities or appointments.
3. Use certain distinguishing titles for specific positions.
I also noticed that, strangely, in the list of “”Rights and Authorities”” pertaining to “”Ordained Bishops””, the right to serve as an Evangelist was missing.
But “”Evangelist”” was listed as something an “”Ordained Minister”” is allowed to do.
I’m sure it was just an oversight.
All of this is so tiresome. Pomp and Circumstance. Titles and Rights and Authorities… like nobility.
These things should NEVER be sought after, in the Body of Christ.
And to fight over who is even ALLOWED to get into the ring to get such a title… it’s childish.”
No man called me…God did! I will keep sharing His gospel and ministering for His glory. Nothing changed for me I just keep on keeping on.
Title helps some time but there in no devil in hell that will stop from you preaching if you want to preach, but we should stay where God has place us…
“I really have very little invested into the denomination of the COG. If God would call me elsewhere, I would not hesitate to go.
Smith Wigglesworth was called out of quite a few denominations, one after another:
“”When I was in the Methodist Church, I was sure I was saved and sure I was right. The Lord said to me, “”Come out”” and I came out. When I was with the people known as the Brethren, I was sure that NOW I was right. But the Lord said, “”Come out”” and I went into the Salvation Army. At that time, it was full of life, and there were revivals everywhere, but the Salvation Army went into natural things, and the great revivals I had known in the early days ceased. The Lord said to me “”Come out”” and I came out. I have had to “”come out”” three times since.””
-Smith Wigglesworth, A Man Who Walked with God, pg 78.”
FYI, I am NOT Church of God. So, please do not understand my comment as intended to be divisive within the COG or as proseletyzing. I was speaking specifically to any female ministers or their supporters who were considering leaving Pentecostal expressions of faith all together due to their frustration on this issue. Some are called to stay. That calling is high too. I just wanted to offer a little hope and insight from the context of the broader pentecostal family…. Same team, guys (and gals.)
“Karen Lucas
I understand your concern.
Watching my wife as a female minister and her Godly Spirit and her determination to trust God and keep doing what she has always done
I wonder about any minister (male or female) that a vote on one item – an item that truly does not effective hands on ministry – if that vote can cause a person to want to walk away, I seriously question their calling and leadership ability.
Proverbs 24:10
If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.
We must not have counted the cost before we signed on and accepted the call,,,, many are called, few are chosen.”
David Lewayne Porter, I sense your compassion on this. However, when you question someone’s calling because they feel a strong conviction to take a stand on something and be a change agent, that concerns me. How do you know that doing just that is not part of their calling? When you are part of any kind of organization, you make a decision to commit yourself to do your part towards helping to make it be the best that it can be. When it is a denomination and you are committed to sound interpretation of scripture, you may at times feel that you need to make a stand on something not because you are worried about your ministry opportunities being impeded but because you feel a conviction to make a stand for the sake of the cause and to help pave the way for future generations or for those who have a different calling than your own. It has happened over and over again throughout history. Both men and women take stands for what they think is right. When we do not take a stand for what we think is right, we are disingenuous.
I am not sure why a woman would want to be a bishop (and I am not sure why most would want to be an ordained minister, but that is just my opinion). I personally have no desire to preside over any man, especially in our day when the issues/temptations men face are appropriately confronted by other men. I also don’t see a Biblical precedent for women to be bishops. Leaders, yes – I am a leader myself (and sometimes wonder why a man wasn’t available to do my job!). Which brings me to what I feel is a more urgent point. Maybe the men and women involved in this debate should spend their time in a more impactful way, namely, men discipling men and women discipling women. As one of the only 30-somethings at my church, I think I can say with authority that the younger generations do not necessarily understand Biblical discipleship. Following Jesus is now and always will be primary, with responsibility for ministry further down on the list. Let’s not forget that Jesus told His disciples not to lord over their authority or claim great titles for themselves!
“I have a FaceBook ministry and I use it to the glory of God. There is in my opinion no greater means to reach out in ministry than the internet.
I am almost 70 and have spent my life in ministry in three countries and four states and I have never been more anointed to minister than now. I reach the world in my briefs!!! and a fresh cup of coffee.”
The Word says in the last days God will pour out His Spirit on ALL flesh and your sons and your DAUGHTERS shall prophesy. Joel 2:28.
“35-36 “I tell you, love your enemies. Help and give without expecting a return. You’ll never—I promise—regret it. Live out this God-created identity the way our Father lives toward us, generously and graciously, even when we’re at our worst. Our Father is kind; you be kind.
37-38 “Don’t pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults—unless, of course, you want the same treatment. Don’t condemn those who are down; that hardness can boomerang. Be easy on people; you’ll find life a lot easier. Give away your life; you’ll find life given back, but not merely given back—given back with bonus and blessing. Giving, not getting, is the way. Generosity begets generosity.—
“Jean , and this relates to the conversation and leadership for women how?
(You see, I would at this point mention the heart of a true servant, point out Jesus for not grasp for His God-Head role, but waited for the Father to exalt Him).
There Is ONE Issue that I have with the Church body.
There are times we are just so weak in presenting the Word to those that truly need it,, and that in due season.”
Preach it Sisters
What makes a movement is its standard I read a lot of these kind of post but rather not get into these conversations & as being a 3 generation Phc minister I am amazed at the controversy whin the full gospel movements out of respect I would think it would be of best interest to stay out of the affairs of others if someone is truly called God will place you believe me! I had all intentions of pastoring In the COG but ended up in the PHC. IMO Paul gave a clear understanding to the ministerial office. If movements would get back to biblical teaching we would see more fire & revlitalization in our pulpits & in our church’s however it’s these type issues that satan uses to create division within the body.Thank God we have something greater than a denomination ! The COG has produced some of the best annointed preachers of all time! Christ made it clear I will open doors no man can shut.
“Well said, Chris Watkins. O am glad you have found your place and can still appreciate and cheer on the ministry of our sister denomination. Same Kingdom.
Same team.”
“You’re talking to me. I turned in my COG credentials this week.
Thank you.
That being said, I believe that God loves God’s people in every stream of the church, and that the continued and even increasing oppression of women in the COG, and other spaces, may be providing an influx of powerful, spirit-filled, passionate ministers into churches in desperate need of revival.
For my part, I plan to spend the next year discerning if that is what/where God is calling me. If so, I hope and pray that my Pentecostal sisters and brothers will continue to see me as a sister and colleague.
God is faithful, even when we are faithless. I believe that carrying fires of revival to God’s people in other traditions is a legitimate calling, and I’ve found my “”liberal”” brothers and sisters extraordinarily open to my Pentecostal, female spirituality, hermeneutics, and voice.
They are thirsty. They are desperate for ministers, and actively seek to elevate women and people of color. Don’t they deserve our consideration?”
oppression please dramatic much? we are not so desperate to ignore Gods instruction and overrule what we decided thru Gods leading just because some women feel their being put down. Please take it up with God he wrote the book. If you were truly being kept down I would be first with you but all you are not able to do is sit in GC big deal I am a Bishop and I don’t. There is NOTHING you can not do ministry wise, no one is stopping you from preaching pastoring teaching. Don’t try to compare this to blacks and civil rights why don’t you argue for gay rights in the church too then? I am truly sorry you are leaving but if you have it in your head that we mean to keep you down then its better you leave. If this had passed many more would have left than the few that leave now.
This whole debate is so very interesting to me. In the Orthodox Church we do not ordain women as priests. Of course serving as a priest and being a pastor/preacher are two different things. We have a long tradition of many hundreds of women who have been preachers and pastors but not priests. What is of special interest to me is that having a PhD is Renewal Studies (Pentecostal-Charismatic) I see this as a total rejection of the Pentecostal Movement’s spiritual tradition. While I know that there were MANY female evangelists there were also women pastors, at least three that come to mind and they were no small potatoes: Marie Brown who pastored Glad Tidings A/G in NYC, Sister Christine Gibson who pastored Zion Gospel Temple in East Providence, RI and of course Aimee Semple McPherson at Angelus Temple in LA. The history record is clear. Maybe the CoG Cleveland is regressing in their Pentecostal testimony and tradition.
It is really odd to me too, Fr. Timothy Cremeens.
Good word.
Louise or I am a woman. I reckon some people thinks it a man because of my sons picture at the side writing a song about His Dad. When he went home to be with Jesus. My son wrote a song about him. Thanks Dad. A beautiful honor to my husband. And his Dad that’s the reason his picture is by my name. But I’m Louise , a woman.
A woman can pursue her full 5 fold calling in the COG. Unless she is called to a title her calling can be fulfilled. I know no one who was “called” to state administrative roles, only those who serve where they are asked. The attitude of those continuing to push and cause division are making it much harder for it to ever be passed in the future. Using 20th century American feminism to interpret the Bible is problematic. Although the Bible does not directly address it, there is no biblical precedence for females in administrative leadership. No early councils and no female Apostles. Yes, there were women in ministry roles but not administrative leadership. The early Church was framed & modeled after Jewish culture which was staunchly patriarchal. You can disagree with this but you cannot deny it and be academically honest. Attacking & being derogatory to those on the opposite side of your position will not help gain future approval. I think women should get to vote and hold state positions but I do not reinterpret the Bible to make it say what I want it to say. False interpretations to make your argument discredits those who do want women in all leadership. Also, defying spiritual authority & refusing to accept the consensus & unanimous vote further undermines future changes.
Nathan Perhaps you meant 4-fold. Apostolic office has long been rejected in all CoG movements even before the involvement of AJ Tomlinson
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life/online-shaming-destroying-lives
In the bible Bishop and Pastor are the same. We are not called to serve denominations but God. Denominations are becoming a thing of the past. Women seem to be put in small country churches that no one else wants to Pastor. In the end you have to do as God directs you.
Karen Lucas, define the sin of male domination in the IPHC, curious.
Michael Green Here;s some Bible here too – Deborah Miriam Huldah Described as Israel’s last good king “Huldah is not chosen because no men were available,” writes Scot McKnight in The Blue Parakeet, “She is chosen because she is truly exceptional among the prophets.” Other Prophetesses Noadiah, Isaiah’s wife, Anna, and the four daughters of Philip. In addition, women like Rachel, Hannah, Abigail, Elisabeth, and Mary are described as having prophetic visions about the future of their children, the destiny of nations, and the coming Messiah. Ruth The Shulamite Girl Esther Rizpah Mary of Nazareth …
Michael Green Here’s the NT you asked for
Women as Apostles – Junia and Andronicus where IN the church of Rome
Women as Prophets – Philip had four unmarried daughters who prophesied IN the church
Women as Evangelists – The resurrection of the Lord was announced by WOMAN FIRST
Women as Pastors and Teachers – Prisca [Priscilla] is not the only woman associated with house church leadership. A surprising number of women are mentioned in this role. . . . In Acts we see Mark’s mother providing a home for the Christians to assemble (Acts 12:12) and at Philippi we hear of believers meeting in the home of Lydia (Acts 16:14-15, 40). Writing to the Colossians, Paul greets “Nympha and the church in her house” (Col. 4:15). Perhaps Chloe is also the host of a home-church (1 Cor. 1:11), as may have been some of the other women Paul greets in the last chapter of Romans.
The “chosen lady”, whom John addresses in his second letter, was a woman functioning as a house-church leader and pastor. In the Greek of 2 John, it is clear that at times John is addressing a single person (the lady), and that at other times he is referring to plural persons (her followers or her congregation).
I have always wondered about 2 John but never taken time to look into it, Troy Day.
Once again on the word USURP or as Michael Green prefers the 1611 KJV USURPE – – – The primary meaning of authentein in Greek literature is “to have full authority or power over.” It is also used of the author or perpetrator of something, and it is even used of a murderer. It can also mean to take in hand. It is used meaning “warranted” and “authentic.”
This word is found in 82 places outside of the Bible, where it is found only here. Of the 82 places, only two predate Paul’s use. The precise meaning of these two is disputed, such as between the choices of “exercise authority” or “compel.” But most scholars agree that the word has to do with authority. On the other hand, there are some people who claim that it means sexual promiscuity in pagan rites. But this makes absolutely no sense in the context of this verse.
Some writers also try to make an issue of the supplied word “usurp” [in the King James Version], or “assume” in other translations. They say a woman should not usurp or assume authority over a man but she can be given that authority by the church.
If we’re going to talk about that passage, we need to also take into consideration the historical and social construct / context. I think it’s highly relevant. Also, we have to realize that we don’t have Timothy’s letter in hand to know exactly what Paul was responding to. We can only guess at it.
Show me Junia and Andronicus in the KJV scripture and verse. Yes the Bible says they can be prophetess no authority over a man. Yes they can be evangelist the Bible says that no authority over a man. Disqualify Priscilla does not say she was a pastor. Her husband Aquila might have been and I bet she was busy teaching the young woman like the Bible says. Providing a home no authority over a man. Meeting in a home no authority over a man. Host no authority over a man. You just proved my point biblically.
This question, in one form or another, has been bandied about by churches for a long time. Churches find it difficult to answer for a couple of reasons. Some are too influenced with non-biblical concerns (such as contemporary ideas about the role of women in society). Others are not using sound exegesis (allowing the Bible to interpret itself) to examine the relevant Scriptures. There is more to this question than pointing to a couple of Bible verses and drawing a conclusion that has little to do with the Bible. There are several Scriptures that must be honestly examined even if it means flying in the face of political correctness.
Right.
I hear that usurp all the time forgive me for saying this but this is how a cult gets started they pick one verse in the entire Bible and start a cult.
I believe it is covered in more than one verse, maybe not by the use of the word usurp, but in principle, especially since the KJV and all others are translations.
Why do they leave out all the submission scriptures and the roles for woman outlined in the Bible.
Woman wanting to be equal to men is not male dominance it’s called feminism.
is there male domination in the general council of the Church of God? Is there male domination with the executive bishops? Will there be continued movement to correct this domination by the next GA18?
Charles
I don’t think “domination” should be used for biblical leadership and headship.
Biblical headship and leadership (covering) is more servant hood than Domination.
I agree. I don’t think ministers should exercise domination over people.
Ministers and pastors are to lead (by example) and give direction and keep order as needed.
But not with dominating
Exactly, he may have to get firm at times but from time to time all servants do.
Firm is not dominating
Is the population skewed to facilitate the desired outcome of the American white leaders? Why there’s not outraged about this gross abnormality and injustic?
Kenneth Gentles can’t kick against the pricks
Sure looks to me like Michael Green ignored all OT and NT references on women in ministry and went on talking about his own agenda
Troy did you read my comments you proved my point I answered all your comments. Everything you wrote was biblical. Woman can be prophetess, evangelist, host, discounted Priscilla as a pastor Bible does not say that. You haven’t given me any Biblical proof of the 2 women you mentioned. All these positions you mentioned not one has authority over a man. And Priscilla probably taught young women like the Bible says.
When is it my agenda when you can’t prove my discussion biblically aren’t you confused.
Nowhere in the Bible is a women whom exercises authority over a man in church leadership.
John Ruffle Pope Francis recently called for a commission to study the possibility of ordaining women to the diaconate in the Catholic Church. This might seem to be disturbing news because it suggests that the pope has opened up the possibility of ordaining women to the hierarchical and sacramental diaconate http://www.crisismagazine.com/2016/women-deacons-matter-authority
I got no problem wirh women deacons at all. Woman priests a definite no-go area and it will stay that way.
Very interesting on Pope Francis. Again, why are you SO preoccupied with authority, Michael Green? To pastor is to serve and lead, not dictate. You cannot force a group of volunteers to do anything. You can only earn their trust and respect and consider it sacred. http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/new-testament-women-church-leaders/
Marg comments to Lucy: I actually do believe that Christians are immune from God’s punitive Judgement – completely immune. See 1 John 4:16-18
Karen Lucas, what does this mean?
Charles Page I’m sorry. Not following. What are you asking me about, the Scripture reference or something else? I will get back with you guys later. Work…
Comments following the above article
Karen
I like the article you posted, and I have no issue with ladies in the ministry offices.
But at pastor teacher you may want to be careful.
The author either did not do his studies correctly, or he is misleading for his own purpose.
He mentioned that Priscilla was listed before Aquila 4 out of 6 times.
It was 3 for 6 Priscilla first and 3 of 6 Aquila first (see screen shot enclosed). So that point of discuss backing him up is loss.
Now why do I point out such a little error?
What else did he miss and get wrong?
And they are ALWAYS mentioned as a ministry team, side by side, hand in hand.
Probably just an oversight or different translation. I don’t think the order in which they are named is really all that important, though. I think that’s a weak argument. After all, both writers reverse the name order at least once. I think the fact that her name is always included is more important than anything else. Sorry guys. Got to go.
Other women are not always grouped with a male counterparts, as other men are not always grouped with female counterparts. I think the beauty here is that there are a lot of models of ministry. The main point is that the gospel is going forth through sons and daughters. So, I thought you were in favor of female pastors, just not bishops, David Lewayne Porter. Did I misunderstand you earlier?
I am in favor of female pastors (if there is an advisory board committee to aid them and that consisting of several men – as well as possibly women).
I do not see a lady in leadership out there all by herself.
And if she is married I believe her husband should be a team with her and they are to be side by side hand in hand.
All levels of leadership in our denomination have council. Each church also has a cabinet of ministry leaders in addition to the church council and there is also church meetings. Full disclosure on finances. Pastors have church council as closest council. General Superintendent has council of the bishops and closest advisory / accountability group is executive council. No dictatorships or silos.
St. Paul recognized that women can prophesy during public worship with head covered (1 Cor. 11:5) and women were able to teach doctrine in the early Church (Acts 18:26). In other words, when the Spirit gives authority to a woman she is to obey the Spirit and exercise spiritual authority over the congregation. Do we at least agree on that David Lewayne Porter
I don’t see her obeying and exercising a “gift” as having “authority over” the congregation.
I see it as being yielded to the Spirit and obeying Him for the benefit of the group. As in 1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(Helps,,,,, listed among the healings, tongues, miracles, governments, teachers, prophets, and apostles).
Yet “helps” by definition is a supportive role that at times may look like or mimic leadership, but is still a supporting role to the actual leader, authority, head.
I think that is where we miss it.
We evaluate by our eyes and not by what The Spirit is actually doing.
Supportive roles as they are fulfilling can look like leadership.
A perfect picture of Christ in the God-Head as He was in His human form.
The Holy Spirit will not contradict scripture.
Exactly! So when the Holy Spirit speaks authority through women in the church He simply confirms the Word. Thank you very much!
When Benny Hinnn speaks he confirms the word
Cog seizes oportunity to yield to scripture
I don’t see her obeying and exercising a “gift” as having “authority over” the congregation.
I see it as being yielded to the Spirit and obeying Him for the benefit of the group. As in 1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(Helps,,,,, listed among the healings, tongues, miracles, governments, teachers, prophets, and apostles).
Yet “helps” by definition is a supportive role that at times may look like or mimic leadership, but is still a supporting role to the actual leader, authority, head.
I think that is where we miss it.
We evaluate by our eyes and not by what The Spirit is actually doing.
Supportive roles as they are fulfilling can look like leadership.
A perfect picture of Christ in the God-Head as He was in His human form.
an argument was made on the General council floor that if God uses a woman in the gifts of the Spirit then she is qualified to be an ordained bishop! misunderstanding of the operation of the gifts
Charles exactly, not understanding the operation of the gifts or the will of the Spirit.
David Lewayne Porter When through the Spirit it is said “Thus sayeth the Lord” it is quite an exercise of authority over the congregation
It must be judged by the ‘elders’ before it is an exercise of authority over the congregation.
And who is using the authority? The Spirit or the speaker?
There in is the answer.
the speaker is certaimnly not
Certainly the Spirit is the authority and the message the speaker gives must be judged as from the Lord and confirmed by scripture.
So if the Spirit is speaking using women who are we to question the authority of the Spirit and whom He is giving authority to?
My question is does that (speaking using) constitute authority?
If so there was a lot of God given authority in 1 Cor 12 and 14 that was out of place and mis-used authority?
There is my question.
Well Spirit authority in the church should be Spirit authority in the church – there shouldnt be any division on that matter
And yet there is
doesn’t mater the sex of the person God is using. It does matter the sex of the people judging.
Does it matter the sex of the person voting?
yes and no women should vote on general council but not be qualified for executive bishop positions.
They need to alter bishop nomenclature as only executive bishops
I think we are all supposed to try (judge) the spirit and word given.
My issue is in our understanding and application of the word authority that may seem to be in the (spot light) for their 15 seconds of fame (which is supposed to be for the Master’s fame).
Our focus is off and wrong.
did anyone test the interpretation of the General Council’s moderator’s interpretation? Is it one man’s call?
Is the past couple of comments off topic? What exactly was discussed at the meetings. Women in ministry are already in the cOg