Women in the Church: Can they be an Elder/overseer?
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Bishops, elders, presbyters, eiscopos, etc. Link https://godswordtowomen.org/richardriss.htm
Deborah Peirce of Paris, N.Y. and Martha Howell of Utica. Phoebe Palmer (1807-1874), “The Mother of the Holiness Movement” began her ministry in 1835 with her Tuesday Meetings for the Promotion of Holiness, which continued for 39 years in New York City, where she lived with her husband, who was a physician. Hundreds of Methodist preachers, including at least five bishops, were profoundly affected by her ministry. The success of Phoebe Palmer’s informal meetings encouraged other women to conduct the same type of ministry, and dozens of them sprang up throughout North America. These meetings brought together Christians of many denominations under the leadership of women, particularly among Methodists, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Baptists, and Quakers.
In 1858, Walter Palmer, Phoebe’s husband, purchased the periodical GUIDE TO HOLINESS, which under her able editorship, grew in circulation from 13,000 to 30,000 subscribers. She travelled widely with her husband, conducting evangelistic meetings during the summer months. In the fall of 1857, she and her husband travelled to Hamilton, Ontario, where they attracted crowds of several thousand people when an afternoon prayer meeting became a ten-day revival meeting during which four hundred people were converted to Christ. They experienced similar successes in New York City and in England, where they preached for four years to packed houses at Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Birmingham, and dozens of other places. It is estimated that within her lifetime, Phoebe Palmer brought over 25,000 people to faith in Christ. William DeArteaga http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/egalitarian-vs-complementarian-views-on-women-in-ministry-in-pentecostal-theology-a-combined-discussion-on-tradition-and-praxis/
A woman cannot be an ‘aner’, a man.
Assuming a host of a church must be ‘a pastor’ to prove that women can be ‘pastors’ is poor reasoning. The logic on that site is fuzzy. If I recall correctly, that was the site that referred to a verse in which Sarah called Abraham ‘lord’ to prove that Sarah was Abraham’s Lord.
I make a lot of mad, they rebuke cause I let them preach on the outreaches, and from behind the pulpit, pray with men present, slow them to prophesy! I let them preach in pants and makeup on their faces… being called a heretic, backslidden, and full of apostasy
Although men should typically be the leaders, some women have the gift, anointing, and wisdom to do better than a lot of men out there. If God is using them, who are we to say they can’t do it? I personally would not want to sit under a woman pastor, as a lot of men might not. Not because of pride or even scriptures used to say it is wrong. I just think men learn better from men on how to be men. But when it comes to the truth, anyone anointed by the spirit can speak it with power.
Also, a woman can have the right men supporting her, having good church structure in which men can still get the discipleship they need. If all is in good order then it can work out fine. Although men need to rise up, women can have some gifting in the area of compassion, love, and other areas that exceed what most men have. Just let God be God and let Him use who He wants to use. You don’t have to sit under a woman if you don’t feel it is for you. But don’t criticize those who can. Pray for them! I know many male pastors whose churches would be better off if they would let a good anointed woman take over! ?
You seem to almost equate speaking with pastoring.
Methodism, Holiness, Pentecostals, and Nazarenes ordain women to be pastors. Whom am I to say no…especially when I see the anointing and the call of God in their lives.
Link Hudson
My wife is the assistant pastor here in our church. She is submissive and doesn’t usurp authority over me and the church. As my Pastor said to me years ago…”It is the responsibility of the husband to disciple his wife.” So I have taught her to prepare sermons and studies and she has taught at the local bible college. When it comes to prayer she got that down because she been an intercessory prayer warrior for 15 years before I married her.
pastor is NOT whats asked in OP
I
Quit going
Prestonwood Baptist
Crazy single ladies
Andrew Gabriel we may need your help on this one Link Hudson is pastoring the same as overseeing / eldering Can they all vote?
Paator is a gift. I see “elder of the church” or “bishop” is the role one was appointed to by the laying on of hands. Beibg a pastor does not make you in charge of a church, IMO, since a newbie could have any gift in him even if he is not qualified yet to be an overseer. I do not see chyrch voting in scripture.
There is no consensus there as far as I know. If you ask a Catholic, you will certainly get a different answer than if you ask a presbyterian.
well now if this is the case there are many male pastors who are not married – what now?
Lydon Noiting is a different topic
Overseer is the same as a bishop. The pastor is a shepherd/elder. And modern denominations vary…over 5, 10, and 20 churches +. This what I heard and amongst the naive they call favorite brothers “Bishop”.
Paul said a bishop must be a man in two passages.
There are lifestyle requirements. He does not even mention a ‘call’ as a requirement…or education.
But some deniminations ordain based on a claimed call or completing formal education.
Agreed….but there is no biblical command to where you can call yourself a bishop because you have many churches under your “watch”.
Broths link have you read in scripture in the qualification of a bishop?
Jerome Herrick Weymouth there are several women apostles in the BIBLE
I wouldn’t take it that far. There are 24 people Called “Apostle” in the Bible, and they are all men. That doesn’t mean a woman can never be an Apostle. But I’m not going to claim anything that is not true just because I want to believe a particular way. There are many things not mentioned in the Bible. Then there are cultural issues in the Bible that really don’t apply in our modern societies.
Eddie L. Hyatt explains it best https://www.charismamag.com/spirit/church-ministry/20285-can-women-be-apostles
Troy Day, this is a stretch to try to prove women can be apostles. Although I don’t disagree that they can be, like I said, I refuse to stretch scriptures to attempt to make it fit my ideas.
Many scholars will argue that Junias is a male name. Origen referred to Junias as a man. Then a common agreement concerning the interpretation of the scripture in Romans 16:7 is with the ESV, saying, “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.”.
So with this understanding, Junias was not even called an Apostle, but was only well known by the Apostles. Especially since most only recognized the 13 Apostles in the earliest days of the church.
We need to be careful how we use the scriptures. I do not believe in OSAS at all. But I have since a few scriptures wrongly used to teach against it. Even though I am also against it, I will not misuse scriptures for my own purposes. A lot of people really want to make a point in favor of women preachers and leaders. My wife can out preach a lot of men I know behind the pulpit. She is a great leader also! But because I lead the church and people and preach the truth, she has no reason to rise above that, but rather works with me. I don’t care what title people want to take. I know many who go by Apostle. And I am not convinced they are truly Apostles. But that is between them, God, and their churches. I have apostolic leadership myself. I just have no desire for the title of Apostle, as I see it as a distraction today. People accept the title of “Pastor”, so I will go with that. It’s not about what we think we are. It’s about what we actually do. You don’t need a title to operate in the 5-fold. Just walk in your anointing, mail or female, and let that anointing speak for you, NOT a title! If a woman has the anointing and gifting, then who will argue with that? Until you feel the need to start using titles and giving positions that don’t fit a persons actual anointing. Then there becomes a reason to question things.
I am grateful for anointed women of God. No title is needed for an anointed person. I have respected many with no titles more than many who wear titles, simply because of the anointing on them.
Lyndon Conn – you forgot one. Hebrews 3:1 designates Jesus Christ the “Apostle and High Priest of our profession.” That makes 25 apostles in the New Testament!. All were male.
Tim Dalton I didn’t forget that scripture or Jesus in the number. Just off one on the actual number. But I was counting Jesus.
Lyndon Conn – anyway they were all male.
There is one petson with a feminine name who was either a noteable apostle ore was not an apostle but the apostles considered her and Andronichus to be noticeable
Link Hudson Actually the Greek says she was considered notable AMONG the apostles not BY the apostles. Meaning she was among the early apostles who held and apostolic office. The grammar is quire clear when you look into it BTW I am still waiting on your response under the Greek in Jesus not drinking wine Does your denomination forbid social drinking in its practical commitments? Melvin Harterhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/1859793847408955/
Troy Day, you are reading into this. There is nothing in the language that indicates a female. And it does it indicate “among” as being one of the Apostles. It makes more sense to see it as among the Apostles this person was considered notable.
I don’t know where alcohol came into this conversation. But Jesus did not drink fermented wine. It is shameful to try to justify the use of drinking alcohol for any reason.
Troy Day I think you are squeezing way too much out of the word ἐν. This word is used with what we, from the perspective of English speakers, would consider a wide range of meaning depending on the context.
I recall an online conversation with an expert in the Greek language, a retired former chair of Classics at a UNC branch, who used to work at a Harvard center in the past, with a PhD from Texas A&M.
He used Romans 16:7 in a conversation to support the idea of female apostles. I pointed out that the English was ambiguous and asked about the Greek. He looked at it, thought about it, and conceded that the Greek was ambiguous as well.
In an in-person conversation, he shared his concern that a lot of Bible College and seminary faculty did not know Greek well, maybe because they had learned under the sophists method as opposed to the other method he mentioned.
He often refuted assertions he heard from pulpits about Greek using Rashi’s method, showing cases from scripture or elsewhere that refuted what individuals said about the language.
Would you say that every verse that refers to someone as ἐν Christ is Christ?
You claim to be able to prove a number of things using Greek. I have been without regular internet access or time to read much, using a cell phone, while moving. You claimed to have proven something or other about real wine not being used. Not being a Greek scholar myself, I have to tell you I am skeptical of your ‘proofs’ using Greek, especially when they run contrary to what other Greek scholars believe. This is no exception.
The following source says that most commentators take Romans 16:7 to mean they are highly esteemed by the apostles. https://books.google.com/books?id=tTBMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA363&lpg=PA363&dq=%22%CE%B5%CE%BD+%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%82+%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%84%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%82%22&source=bl&ots=s1xTeYuXjO&sig=0FJRRHrKm3zg-4rMI0EGICVPTi0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZg_aW2KHdAhVQyVMKHfS8DQIQ6AEwBXoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22%CE%B5%CE%BD%20%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%82%20%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%84%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%82%22&f=false
Show me HOW am I reading into it
ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:7 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνίαν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγοναν ἐν Χριστῷ.
ἐν – (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) “in the realm (sphere) of,” as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).
I am reading the Greek text with the proper grammar parsing as also noted in the link I gave here https://juniaproject.com/who-was-junia/
BTW They should have told you in your prior theological education that when you quote Origen you have to submit his actual Greek text in your quote and not someone else’s translation or hearsay you found on the the internets. Here is what Origen actually wrote:
Origen’s commentary on Romans, which was originally written in Greek but only survives as a complete document in a 13th century Latin translation, has both “Junia” (1280c) and “Junias” (1289a).
A critical edition of Rufinus’s translation of Origen’s commentary (where the masculine form occurs) exists and demonstrates that
the earliest and best manuscripts have a feminine form of the name.
The masculine form exists only in two texts, probably one is dependent upon the other, from the 12th century.
In ALL other places where Origen refers to Romans 16:7, he uses a feminine form of the name. Other scholars who translate Origen’s commentary also have the name as a feminine (Epp, Junia, 33–34).
Bruce Metzger writes:
The female Latin name Junia occurs over 250 times in Greek and Latin inscriptions found in Rome alone, whereas the male name is unattested anywhere, and when Greek manuscripts [containing Romans 16:7] began to be accented, scribes wrote the feminine Ἰουνίαν (“Junia”). – A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition (D-Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 1994), 475.
James D.G. Dunn writes:
Lampe 139–40, 147 indicates over 250 examples of “Junia,” none of Junias, as was taken for granted by the patristic commentators, and indeed up to the Middle Ages. The assumption that it must be male is a striking indictment of male presumption regarding the character and structure of earliest Christianity. . . We may firmly conclude, however, that
one of the foundation apostles of Christianity was a woman and wife.
Romans 9-16 (Word Biblical Commentary, Vol 38B) (Dallas, TX: Word, 1988), 894.
Bernadette Brooten writes:
John Chrysostom was not alone in the ancient church in taking the name to be feminine. The earliest commentator on Romans 16:7,
Origen of Alexandria (c. 185–253/54), took the name to be feminine (Junta or Julia, which is a textual variant),
as did Jerome (340/50–419/20),
Hatto of Vercelli (924–961),
Theophylact (c. 1050–c. 1108),
and Peter Abelard (1079–1142).
In fact, to the best of my knowledge,
no commentator on the text until Aegidius of Rome (1245-1316) took the name to be masculine.
Kenneth Bailey writes:
The first noticeable shift from Junia to Junias was apparently made by Faber Stapulensis, writing in Paris in 1512. His work subsequently influenced Luther’s commentary on Romans.
“Women in the New Testament: A Middle Eastern Cultural View,” in Theology Matters, 6.1 (Jan-Feb 2000), 2. (This paper can be read free and online here.)
John Thorley writes:
The universal view of the early fathers was that the name was Junia, and that she was a woman, and the English Authorised Version of 1611 followed this reading “Junia”, clearly a woman’s name; The female name “Junia” was used in the Tyndale and King James Bible. I’d say all these witnesses know better than Link Hudson Lyndon Conn
Link Hudson instead of your imaginary friend whom you called a “greek” scholar” WHY dont we listen to actual Greek scholars like Bruce Metzger, Dunn, Brooten, Tyndale, the translators of KJV and so on – ppl who have actually studies Greek and theology and are not making their conclusions based on Google?
Troy Day You can look up Bill Thurman online. I think he’s still alive and kicking if you are interested.
You should consider the type of epistomology you are teaching. It is dangerous for the sheep. The preacher who knows enough Greek to be dangerous can convince the audience he is right because he knows more Greek than they do, and they shouldn’t use online tools that disprove him. I don’t know if Arnold Murray ‘knew Greek;, but he knew more about Greek than some of the people who followed him, and he convinced them of some pretty weird stuff using this approach. My exposure to Greek and Hebrew has nothing to do with whether your assertions are correct.
I do not see how most of your comment addresses the issue at all. Is it addressed to me? What does male endings on the name have to do with my point? What does Origin have to do with it? I showed a source stating that most commentators considered the two to be held of note by the apostles. The point is many commentators, including those who read Greek, disagree with you.
That is a fair point. My point is that if these two are of note among the apostles, it is ambiguous as to whether they are apostles held of note among the apostles, or non-apostles held to be of note among the apostles. It’s an issue of semantic ambiguity, not Greek grammar.
Link Hudson pls consider this among your many words
first – the lexical field of the adjective ἐπίσημος
Second – the the syntactical implication of this adjective in collocation with ἐν plus the dative.
Presenting them as Paul did is conclusive for Junia’s female apostleship
Do you have any examples from Greek texts which demonstrate that ἐπίσημοι ἐν cannot refer to one being ‘noteable among’ a group without being a part of the group? What about the dative would prove that?
Link Hudson I posted an article from Dan Wallace. It is interesting.
Tim Dalton In this thread?
Link Hudson yes I answered Troy.
Link Hudson Troy Day – actually it could. The Junia project is biased to a degree, but hopefully Daniel B. Wallace isn’t. Many consider him the leading Greek scholar today. He has come up with some interesting views. https://bible.org/…/junia-among-apostles-double…
Link Hudson https://bible.org/article/junia-among-apostles-double-identification-problem-romans-167
Link Hudson – this is informative as well — https://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/Was%20Junia%20Really%20an%20Apostle%20A%20Re%20examination%20of%20Rom%2016%207.pdf
Tim Dalton I see ‘403 Forbidden’ instead of the link.
Link Hudson I reposted it below
Why are you theologians splitting hairs?? First of all, you remind me of the Pharisees ,second of all,I was under the impression that there can never be any more Apostles other then the original twelve,so…why are you debating? Shouldn’t you be spreading the Gospel instead??? !!! Please excuse this ignorant Pentecostal lay person!
Cindy Fox – that is no excuse for disobeying the biblical charge of 2 tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. —–Sometimes people put down themselves as you did to actually show pride. I am so ashamed that many Pentecostals only read the first part of Acts chapter 2 or listen to someone screaming it. If one would read chapter one the picking of a new one to fill Judas’ place is detailed. Look it up. — The problem I see is that we are not to be under the impression but be like these people——-Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. —— I am sick of people adding to the ignorant stereotype of the Pentecostals. People need to learn the bible before speaking their often wrong impressions. Stop going by experience, impressions, traditions, man’s thought and go by the word of God.
Please go away
Lyndon Conn the Bible names Prisciula and Junas as apostles Since the Bible does it, we should as well The OP question is of course about elder/overseer Apostleship may be above
Those two are not listed as Apostles. And as mentioned, Junias was a male, not a women. I am not against women preaching. Or even against them leading. But there is a difference between an Apostle and a pastor. Pastors were not overseers of churches. Bishops were the church overseers. While apostles would oversee regions of churches as messengers of God to the Churches. No women ever held that position in the Bible. Again, this is not to say a woman cannot do such a thing. But only that the Bible does not give us such an example because of culture and the fact that men were known as the leaders because of being the “stronger vessel”, and because of the fall and the command to submit to the man. Many women have done great things as leaders since those days. But it is the exception to the rule.
Part of the problem with the modern church is that men don’t rise up to their call to lead. Women are more likely to rise up because the church has been feminized. I praise the women who are willing. But the men need reason to rise to their call and be the leaders first, as the women follow. Most women are simply better at following naturally. But some will lead! And for those who do, praise God!
In the Bible there are women prophetesses. And there are women pastors (who were not senior church leaders). No Apostles in those days. It just was not culturally accepted. The early church times are full of male leaders. No woman bishops or Apostles.
There is no proof Junia was a male As a matter of fact when you read it in the Greek all points to a female
Priscuila was listed as among the leading apostles even more prominent than her husband Paul himself wrote that
Troy Day, there is also no proof that Junia was a female. The Greek does not point to female. Origen referred to Junia specifically as a male. My point isn’t to say Junia was definitely a male, but only to say there is no evidence of Junia being a female. Therefore it is not proper to say Junia was a female Apostle.
Then to add, the scripture does not say they were counted among the Apostles as one of them. It actually translates that they were “well known by the Apostles”.
I have no ax to grind in this conversation in order to speak against women in ministry. Not at all! I do not have a problem with anointed women ministering. I just can’t misuse scripture to support my beliefs.
Sure Lyndon Conn Read on The Greek is quite clear Junia was a female Co-laborer of Paul, Fellow Prisoner, Noted Apostle https://juniaproject.com/who-was-junia/
Or considered noteable among the apostles.
The grammar does not allow such translation
Troy Day Others who read Greek disagree. Can you prove this from uses of ‘en’ in Greek. If someone can be ‘en’ Christ without being Christ, doesn’t that argue against your position?
Troy Day – actually it could. The Junia project is biased to a degree, but hopefully Daniel B. Wallace isn’t. Many consider him the leading Greek scholar today. He has come up with some interesting views. https://bible.org/article/junia-among-apostles-double-identification-problem-romans-167
yes Daniel B. Wallace – also another great bias Link Hudson No you cant. You have to force the dative with “EV” and it just aint there
What do you mean by, “…if you call your wife a pastor, you are already moving in the apostolic?” Please clarify. Seems like a pretty low bar for moving in the apostolic.
I always hear about how no men are rising to the occasion. Still give a woman a church and she will never relinquish authority. Not if 300 men of God show up for the job I’ve seen it played out.
Women should not usurp authority over a man plain and simple.
Troy Day women can be apostles, evangilist etc. But when it comes to authority over a man that is a problem.
oh well tell it to Link Hudson
Link Hudson if a women’s husband is a pastor that women is a pastors wife
and if a woman is a pastor does this make her husband pastors husband too?
Troy Day according to the Bible woman are not suppose to be pastors
really?
Paul told Titus and Timothy that the bishop must be a man.
https://bible.org/article/junia-among-apostles-double-identification-problem-romans-167
no can do – there are many bishops and pastors today that are NOT married
Troy Day how do you think Paul’s teaching should be applied in this case? This very thing may have been an issue in Refirmation times.
I know they can get licensed now. I don’t know if them being Ordained or not. It started out with just Exhorters for women. That’s what I have. They wanted me to go on for license. But I I wanted is to have some kind of license that my name would be listed, that churches would read it in the minutes and know I was a minister, where they would know they could call me. And I would get the same reports as licensed. If they can be Ordained. Then I guess it would give them to right to hold any office in the Church Of God. But I’m not sure if that passed or not.
Pentecostals, Nazarenes, Holiness, and Methodist denominations ordain women Pastors.
Not all Pentecostals. Church of God a woman can pastor but can’t be a Bishop (elder/overseeer)
Tim Dalton several church of God sects….C of G, Cleveland, Tn. Or C of G Anderson. In.?
Jerome Herrick Weymouth – we were talking pentecostal so cleveland
Tim Dalton Thanks for the information.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth they just had a fight at the end of July. Women lost
Tim Dalton The COG position does not have much to do with scripture, since a Biblical ‘bishop’ is loosely what a COG ‘pastor’ is supposed to be.
I say ‘loosely’ because the apostles appointed elders, more than one of them not just one man, from within the local congregation not appointed by an administrative bishop, etc.
The issue is overseeing the congregation, not an extra-biblical layer of leadership or a title that makes you sound important but doesn’t correspond with anything in scripture.
Link Hudson Are you talking about a denomination or the overall church of God….it may appear that we can no longer speak in generalities. But as to say. The A/G, the Foursquare Gospel Church go this way and the Church of God, Cleveland, Tn. and the Pentecostal Church of God go that way.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth I edited my post before I read yours, and said, “COG denomination.’ I mean the one with HQ in Cleveland, TN. I was also adding the final paragraph to the post as you liked it.
Link Hudson women can be pastors and co-pastors. They can’t be Bishops who vote and have other perks. It is a pride thing. One of the reasons they do this if to maintain a claim on biblical honesty. No woman having authority over men. Sadly, I have worked among them and they are very ignorant concerning the bible. The denomination is based on man’s experience and the gift of tongues and very little else. It is very tragic.
It is interesting that every early English translation of the NT has the feminine form of “Junia” in Romans 16:7. These include Tyndale, Coverdale, the Great Bbile, the Bishop’s Bible, the Geneva Bible and King James. Not until modern translations, beginning with the RV in 1881, was the male form of “Junias” used. The 1984 NIV translators chose “Junias” but the 2011 edition has returned to “Junia.” Here are some further thoughts on Junia. http://godswordtowomen.blogspot.com/2018/09/this-article-is-derived-from-eddie.html
And why wouldn’t the 2011 niv people do it…that version seeks to emasculate God.
BOTTOM LINE for me:
– no Greek text until 12c says Junia was a man – none
– nothing in the Greek NT points to Junia or Prisquilla says they were men
– Tyndale and KJV translated them as women
– Tyndlae and KJV translated them AMONG the apostles meaning OF them not merely noted by them
– ἐν – (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) “in the realm (sphere) of,” as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within) making them great apostles
– Bruce Metzger, Dunn, Brooten, Tyndale, the translators of KJV agreed
– finally Dr. C. Thomas of PTS said so – this settles is it for me
is that Chris Thomas? knew him over 30 years ago.
Settled for me. Other Apostles were mention just not by name …Paul called them fellow workers…
Why does Tyndale’s translation deserve to be a point? Is how the word was translated in a medeival Lituanian or Bulgarian translation proof of something? If Tyndale went one way on an ambiguous passage that does not eliminate the ambiguity?
Even in English, of note among the apostles is ambiguous as to whther the object of said notability is an apostle or not. Tim posted a link to an article that presented evidence for ambiguity while trying to argue for a definitive stance.
Link Hudson English glosses of Greek words is not sufficient for thus type of issue.
Link Hudson that’s why we point out HOW those english glosses have been translated and interpreted through history to balance the conclusion where the proof is overwhelming in favor of the two women apostles in the NT
Troy Day the bible.org article shows evidence from Greek in the opposing direction.
which article? this shows only bible.org
Troy Day I just mentioned the site and FB linked it. Timothy Dalton posted the link. Here it is:
https://bible.org/article/junia-among-apostles-double-identification-problem-romans-167
Yes I addressed this Link already on a number of occasions
Troy Day You addressed the gender of Junia and made assertions in one post– without evidence like this post gives–regarding the other issue. This writer gives evidence for the noted by the apostle interpretation.
Link Hudson — well Dan Wallace may be the top scholar in the field today. He is the one who stopped the 2 Tim. 3:16 debate and from there has shown quality work. He is a voice to be considered.
Tim Dalton how did he stop the II Timothy 3:16 debate?
Link Hudson He did his masters on that passage He spent hours showing that “all” scripture is inspired and not all scripture that is inspired is profitable. A major work. There are several more articles on his work — https://bible.org/article/relation-2-timothy-316
Link Hudson I presented plenty of evidence – which part do you still not understand? http://probible.net/romans-167/
Troy Day You present a page of evidence that scholars do not see it the same way– evidence for ambiguity in the wording of the passage. This is my point. The passage is ambiguous. I don’t take Wallace’s argument as proof that there is no ambiguity. He does show clear evidence that ‘en’ can be used in a way opposed to your view.
So the question is, if a passage is ambiguous, do we base church practice on the ambiguity? If Paul twice writes that a bishop must be a man (once after telling women to be silent and not usurp authority over men), should we disregard this teaching because one verse indicates that a woman may….or may not have been… an apostle.
So again – Greek-speaking John Chrysostom explicitly identified Junia as a woman and an apostle. He appeared to regard her as an amazing example of counter-expectation. I agree with you that this verse does appear to evoke some interesting acrobatics, when someone tries to constrain the semantic range of EN + dative and tries to establish the masculine gender of Junia’s name at the same time
Troy Day Chrysostom, hundreds of years later, interpreted an ambiguous passage a certain way. Was he relying on a line of tradition from that time, from people who knew Junia? I think he was reading the text, and interpreted an ambiguous passage a certain way as many people do with the English of the passage.
Consider Galatians 2:2. Paul preached ‘among the Gentiles’ without being a Gentile, didn’t he? Why couldn’t someone be of note ‘among the apostles’ without being one?
Among the Gentiles: ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν.
Would it be reasonable for me to argue that Galatians 2:2 is ‘proof’ that Paul was really a Gentile and not a Jew?
haaah Link you aint got a clue what you are talking about
How do you compare the construction
IS prominent among
with
PREACHED among
???
You are comparing apples to oranges here 🙂
Pls see my comment under the actual Greek discussion
masc. acc. VS fem. dative based on the parsing
IS the issue here that Walles fails to address 🙂
Troy Day Your argument before was en plus the dative. I showed you en plus the dative and you say its apples to oranges.
en + dative adjective; you are showing en + dative noun modified by a 3rd person who is the doer of the action. Your example could not be further from the phrase used in Rom 16:7
Troy Day Do you have any evidence that ‘en’ changes meaning between the two types of cases?
This article takes your side on the discussion, https://cbmw.org/uncategorized/a-female-apostle/, but IMO is more scholarly than your position, because it is arguing for a more likely interpretation of the passage while noting the existence of ambiguity in the language.
Tim Dalton I was being facetious…you are assuming things about me, You seem to be a white washed tomb in the words of our LORD.. I am neither ignorant nor unlearned in GOD’s WORD, in fact I have studied for years and have taught and preached in my home church. I am however not formally trained,my teaching has come mostly from… THE HOLY SPIRIT !. I was merely asking why such learned men as yourselves are wasting time splitting hairs instead of PREACHING THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE ! I shall not respond further.
Cindy Fox – I only read your first statement which is enough- Let your yes be yes is what the bible says. Why pretend. 2 cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; — Jesus said that He did nothing in secret. Too bad people, by their lack of biblical understanding, make it a secret.
Cindy Fox The Bible mentions a number of apostles besides the twelve, for example, Barnabas, Timothy, Silas (Acts 14:4;14, I Thessalonians 1:1;2:6-7)
Cindy Fox I agree with you on a statement: The Holy Ghost teaching you
It is Biblical to believe that a person can receive from the Holy Ghost all they need to know about what Gods Word means.
Jesus Christ was the ultimate teacher. The disciples got a crash course for three years in what Jesus Christ taught
They were uneducated Galileans
But I am appalled at the feeling portrayed in this group that if you don’t know Hebrew or Greek you can’t have the right meaning of a scriptures
I believe the Holy Ghost can wade through all the Hebrew and Greek mens wisdom and give me the correct interpretation of a scripture
Scotty Searan – do you think we should falsely represent ourselves as she did. What does the Holy Ghost say about that. Also brother, I know some people can get envious that others have biblical language skills. I mean I know some who come down on those using their knowledge of Greek & Hebrew but they are quick to use Strong’s or vines. It is the same thing but only relying on others to do their studying for them.
Tim Dalton the Biblem.org article as good. I would like to see Troy Day respond to it. It proves other scholars do not see the Greekk as conclusive as he does and presents a strong argument in favor of the opposing interpretation.
For tge bishop/ elder tole for those appointed to oversee the local church, Paul wrote twice that the bishop had to be a man.
Link Hudson I have read that.
Tim Dalton:
I do not believe she misrepresented herself. We all have relied on somebodys work to educate us. You had to rely on someone to talk.
Yes I use Strongs Concordance. But even today it is being challenged as being a good study tool because it relied on corrupt manuscripts.
Strongs may give you the Original Hebrew/Greek word and translation
But what it does not give you is the vocabulary flow of speech patterns that may be evident in a paragraph sentence format.
Strongs can give you the Original and translated word but not the format that the writers by the Holy Ghost was meaning for us to understand
I have a Vines and a Smiths bible and i rarely use them .
I use Merriam Webster dictionary and if it is archaic
I have an old Oxford Dictionary about 8″ thick.
I do have study Bibles with commentaries, but my favorite is Thompson Chain Reference Bible.
I believe that the Holy Ghost can, will and has showef me what I need to know through the Holy Ghost in Kneeology Seminary.
Link Hudson I see the point you;ve been trying to make for male only leadership but when looking in the Greek it just aint there #sorry Pls read the discussion on Jnia its all there
The issue is whether to reject clear statements of scripture (like the statement that the bishop must be a man) in favor of a verse that is ambiguous (of note among the apostles) and theological reasoning (e.g. that if a woman could be an apostle, then women can be bishops.)
Paul tells the women to learn in silence and then says let the bishop be a man. Isn’t there a male-female contrast there?
Would female bishops have to be monogamous married lesbians?
The clear statement of Scripture is not that the bishop must be a man –
first – you assume it says bishop – not the Greek word there
second – you assume a man of 1 women lit. Gr. Translation means he must be a man
Scripture is telling us in the verse you did NOT quote that
for the historical period when it was written
It was customary for a man to have more than 1 wife
Paul is saying not so for a minister
It was not customary for a woman to have more than 1 husband – hence Paul does not address it as it was not a issue
BTW You really have a way of twisting the Bible which shows your lack of formal theological education. And you allow your baptistic background to dictate your hermeneutics – and to do so quite strongly. Pentecostals historically recognize women in ministry and church leadership – at least in America and most of the civilized world. The Scripture you did not quote simply confirms it. BTW is off topic and just another rabbit trail since you cannot prove your previous point Why dont we move all discussions back to the question of OP and not follow your new rabbit trail?
Troy Day I assume a level of education and understanding of the reader to know that I am using bishop to refer to episcopos, the word from which it is translated. You should be aware that I acknowledge the popular usages of the term may deviate from biblical meaning.
Many Pentecostals have struggled with the tension on women in ministry between the Holiness tradition of women in ministry and certain scriptural teachings. The COG has put some limits on the titles it gives out. Some in the A/G taught that women should minister under a man’s leadership.
If Pahl required a monogamous man because of polygamy, he still requires a man.
Yes Link Hudson you are the lead authority on the subject and dont let no one else tell you otherwise http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/did-you-know-that-pentecostals-were-the-leaders/
Monogous women cannot be husbands. Do youhace evidence of multiple wives veing an issue tgere, as opposed to prostitutes and mistresses?
As far as historical background goes to be a judge in Israel-a stepping stone to elder of the people, ine had to be married with children and meet several other requirements similar to those for being a bishop according to Maimonedes.
Many people do try to squeeze a women pastor or bishop argument out of the ambiguity about apostles in Romans 16:7.
Troy Day dismissing and ‘dissing’ people and their opinions with mischaracterizations and snide comments is much easier than reasoned discussion I suppose.
If cussing showsva lack of intelligence, those tactics may show a lack of a reasonable argumentm
If they dykes then they are in apostasy!!!
They still can’t pull off being a man/husband, either.
There are somethings I disagree in Scott Lenoke”s article.
If we start choosing what scriptures that were written to the particular culture and what was not, then we will have no Word of God to depend on.
I am a firm believer in the cananon we have received down through the years it is what God wanted us to have.
No there may not be slave in America, but you make that fit our society, that anyone who is performing a service for pay is a servant, not a slave.
You carry your car in to get it serviced, by a mechanic (Servant/employee) who is employed by (Master/Employer) who is paying the bill
Jesus Christ is our Master and we are His Servants, but yet in our relationship we both serve each other.
If someone is working for me, I re their Master/Employer and they are my Servant/Employee and they are performing a service for me as I instruct because I am paying the bill.
I could discuss other issues and this is one because many Servant/ employees do not want to do what the Master/Employer wants done, they want to their way.
Many People do not look at the book Philemon, but it was there for a purpose and the Master/Servant explanation was the purpose.
Scotty, would you argue that we still practice having household slaves?
If you watch the videos by Link Hudson on YouTube this role now must be assumed by women enslaved by family vows with no rights for decision making or church leadership
Troy Day speaking of slaves, do you not fear your Master? I see you are reverting back to dissimg and mischaricterizations. Slander is a sin
‘Family vows’– that does not sound like my terminology. I do believe wives should submit to their husband. Show me any writings of pre60s feminist movement Pentecostals that would disagree with what I said. (Not that biblical truth isvdependent on them). Nothing I have said on YouTube should be considered extreme or controversial by traditional Pentecostals. Liberal feminusts who twist scripture may have a problem.
If you have a specific quote or minute marker share it. Otherwise stop trying to mischaricterize me on the group with vague mischaracterizations. I have never said a Christian man should treat his wife like a slave.
Scott Lencke no
Wives are never slaves and they were not in Biblical days. There is a submissive part on both parties. Though in this day, women seem to push the envelope and want to be independent
I have been married 42 years
Yes I listen and consider my wife.
But I make the final decisions if their is a point for decision making
We honour each other.
I am retired
We have duties, my wife takes care of the inside of the home and I take care of the outside
I do not cook.
OK then Have it your way BUT I have noticed church bosses who are against church leadership are usually bossed by their wives at home. Terry did you know this to be true by dealing with churches all your life?
Scotty, no doubt about wives not being household slaves. But what about the household slaves that Eph 6 & Col 4 talk about? My question is whether we allow for household slaves.
Troy Day brother, you are going where angels fear to tread. Any answer is a “pokin the bear” answer on this one.
Scott Lencke if you have a person who is an housekeeper in our times theu may be maids or custodians. They are servants.
If a person is paying to another perform a service such the person performing the service is a servant to the Employer/Master
Employer/Employee = service
Master/Servant =Service
We are required to obey our Masrer/Employer as Christians
Terry Wiles I just know a man oppressed at home when I see/read one on the internets 🙂
TroyDay ate you saying that men who have bossy wives are against women in church leadership
Scotty did you ToDay ate … your keyboard for lunch 🙂
Troy Day no
Troy Day How many ladies pastors were you pastors.
You edited your and changed it.
I am no biting. You can say whatever you want to about Scotty Searan I am thru talking about illegal.
I have scriptures in Acts where people were of one accord and love their brethren enough to live as Jesus taught them
I don’t like the word socialism because it has been tainted and marred by Marxism. But Christian Socialism was in Acts and no where did God condemn it.
Scotty Searan I understand what you are saying, though I’d argue household slaves in the ancient Mediterranean world is much different from our idea of a maid. Still, the point is that we don’t argue the master/slave relationships MUST continue, even when Paul uses words of rooting it in obedience to Christ. We do not HAVE TO continue this practice. There is no definitive, eternal household social structure.
Troy Day I’m still trying to figure out what you meant by your accusation against me that my videos that wives are ‘enslaved by family vows.’
One of the many, many problems with marriages in the US is that many wives do not respect/reverence/’fear’ their husbands as scripture teaches, and they do not submit to them. I believe this contributes to the problem we have with divorce in our society, where research has shown that over 60% of no-fault divorces are initiated by women.
It seems socially acceptable for women to say negative things about men or men being better than women, but if men do the same thing, it is considered to be sexist. Wives can complain and say negative things about their husbands, but if a man does the same thing about his wife, people think that’s a bad thing.
In the old days, even when I was young, I would hear preachers preach that wives are supposed to submit to your husbands. But, several years ago, I was in a seeker-sensitive megachurch service where the preacher read that verse in Ephesians 5. His comment about submission was that they had all heard enough about that. He focused on men’s responsibilities and the importance of communication.
I thought, “No, people haven’t heard enough about that.” Many preachers do not touch wives submission with a ten foot pole. Other people in the congregation who become preachers may not realize the importance of it. The culture argues against it.
And then there are those who comment that a balanced or even very light reference to the idea of wives submitting to their husbands is teaching that wives are to be ‘slaves’– the same rhetoric the radical feminists use.
You have people not being taught the imporance of wives submitting to their husbands, plenty of voices speaking against it– even preachers, and in the meanwhile households are out of order. This contributes to marriage problems and divorce.
I really believe wives are happier in their marriages if they respect their husbands and also submit to them. Husbands are happied in marriage if they love their wives as Christ loved the church. Emotional happiness is not the main objective, but it is a benefit.
Scott Lencke But a person should obey who they work for.
The Employer is a master because he pays the bills for a service.
The Employee is a servant because they are performing a service for which they are being paid.
Employer and Masters are synonyms
Employee and servant are synonyms
Ephesians 6:5-9
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are yourmasters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Not accusations just observations and it’s been a while since I have seen them Obviously I am not one of your regular followers 🙂
Scotty, I know you’re trying to apply the passage today. But household slaves / masters of the ancient world is *not* the same as our idea of boss / employee. We don’t perpetuate the social system of household slaves. We don’t. The social structures of the ancient world are not eternal. The moral instruction, yes. Not the social setup.
feudal, capital and socialist, 21st century #hello
I do not believe in slavery.
If you are serving someone whether employer or performing a service for someone let them cut out the remuneration and see if they didn’t own you.
Fail to pay your house payment and see if it feels they didn’t own you.
These things will hound your reputation for years.
Scotty Searan just face it Christian Socialism was in Acts Whatever they did in Jerusalem God dissolved with persecution by Acts ch 6-7 and spread the church through out the whole Roman Empire Therefore women could serve as apostles in such a great need for leaders and preachers and were not bound to the patriarchal system any longer Just read this https://www.npr.org/2018/09/06/645195329/trump-administration-proposes-rule-to-allow-longer-detention-of-migrant-children
Troy Day misuse of therefore.
What scriptures with that be Scotty Searan Wasnt Scott Lencke also quoting the Scripture in his article as well?
Following the teaching of the Bible is more important than how one lines up with relatively recent denominational teaching. Pentecostal denominations also vary in the degree to which women are given certain roles in ministry.
Sure Link 3 weeks and 10 exegesises later you are still stuck on your YouTube videos made 10 yrs ago. What will take to reform your thinking? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/did-you-know-that-pentecostals-were-the-leaders/
Troy Day I do not recall discussing Youtube videos. There are a lot of articles on that page and I do not know what you are referencing.
Have you read Wayne Grudem’s article on the uses of kephale. There are plenty of cases where it refers to authority or positional leadership type roles.
oh well
Why don’t we stick with sound doctrine, first denominations aren’t biblical at all! Second women in ministry really don’t matter if their household is jacked up. Men in ministry doesn’t matter if their household is jacked up. Do you think the Apostles who died for the gospel would be satisfied with most churches today?
at times, denominational doctrines are set to attract a crowd or keep them. I believe that we all know that. Attendance and tithes often rule as Jesus has received a demotion. How many actually talk about Jesus and share the gospel outside of their walls especially to strangers. Jesus is Lord.
Terry did you know Resolution 16 dettracted people?
Probably a lot in some churches. But also there is a marked rise in peace and comfort.
detracted apostles profits and such …
Lol
You see any woman here (The new world or what some call heaven. New heaven & earth.
1. Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
2. Matthew 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
3. Luke 22:28-30
“You are those who have stayed with me in my trials, and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
4. Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5. Revelation 4:4
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.
6. Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done
7. 2 Peter 3:13
But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
8. Isaiah 66:22
“For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
9. Revelation 21:12-14
It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb).
r u saying no women in heaven or what ?
What Peter bounded on earth. So it is in heaven.
is this why there is half hour of silence there?
That 7th Seal has not sounded.
no more than I can be on the mothers board
Mothers Board is not a mother board
BOTTOM LINE: the Bible says women elders and overseers are just fine #there
Troy Day it says no such thing. The passages most cloesly related to the topic say the bishop must be a man, and one verse comes after a passage where he tells women to learn in slince and full submission and not usurp authority over a man.
You’ve shown not a single proof from the Bible to back your theory Just general talk from your cultural background. Pentecostals were leaders in ordination of women http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/did-you-know-that-pentecostals-were-the-leaders/
Troy Day my comment comes from scripture. You rely on your cultural background (US Pentecostalism) as the basis for doctrine rather than scripture. I was raised Pentecostal, too.
naah I’ve seen your videos No proof Just general talk
Link you should be grateful Karen Lucas is not in this discussion or she would have straighten your theology out in a jiffy
Lol. Not taking the bait. Bigger fish to fry over here in NC. Y’all enjoy this debate while you can. The audience and patience for it is waning. Meanwhile, there is lots of work to do out in the field. So, I’ll be out there if you need to find me. ? Peace out.
whats your take on this Philip Williams ?
Troy Day I have seen an elderly woman as a true mother in the Lord publicly admonish a leading pastor and the pastor trembled knowing it was from God.
Let him be a man, a one-woman/wife man.
That is for bishop correct? Do you see Elder = to Bishop = to overseer?
Leadership does not lie in the skirt or trouser…
lets look in the actual GREEK – shall we?
Overseer translates the sames word as bishop. In Acts 20:28, Paul calls the elders of the Ephesian church bishops and I Timothy 1 seems to us elders and bishop to refer to the same person.
1Timothy 2:12 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
What does aner mean?
What does assume authority mean exactly ?
women in ministry is a MUST
No
Daughters shall prophesy!
Paul did not permit women to teach
Pail also did not receive paid salary as a clergy
Paul refused to minister with Mark the Gospel writer
Paul acted against a direct prophetic word given to him before his trip to Rome
Are these ALL rules the church should operate under?
Link Hudson Christopher Boggess did any of you @ any time had a woman Sunday School teacher over you in church ?
Troy Day what was the direct prophetic word? The brethren who warned him through the spirit? He sid not disobey Agabus from what we see oin scripture. He may have been obligated by a vow.
Link Hudson I find it very hard to believe that at no time in your long claimed history within the Pentecostal tradition you had a female Sunday School preacher – it is inevitable even in a Baptist church
As a kid I am sure I had plenty. I am thinking of a couple of them.
Troy Day my first Sunday School teacher was Billy Graham’s cousin. This was in the church in Charlotte founded by AG Garr, the first white pastor to receive the baptism at Azusa Street.
Troy Day as a kid
And even one as a adult but she did not the will of god i left that church
When you study everyday god truely shows you some things and santify you
Had we Spiritual men leading the church, we would not have these gender problems, the women could preach or teach as the Spirit directed, very much as was the case among the early Pentecostals. But men have backslidden since those days despite the fact that they exalt themselves above our spiritual fathers as do the rest of this Godless age.
I dont think Link Hudson will disagree with you on this one but his rejection of women in church leadership could be indeed related to what you wrote We are yet to see!
The spirit would never operate agianst his word thats how we know its god or our own thoughts or the devil Philip Williams
Christopher Boggess are you reading them carnally or spiritually?
Philip Williams i am spiritual
Born again baptized believer
Christopher Boggess
Devoted to the Lord and dead to the world?
O yes i gave up my whole family for him
There is no one i love more
WHICH word exactly? the one that says Jesus told Mary to go preach HIS resurrection to the apostles? Was that usurping authority over them and teaching them HE IS ALIVE?
Troy Day when did he say pteach
Or teach
he said GO TELL – and she told them something they did NOT know – what do we call that? Teaching?
Troy Day he said go tell
You mom sais go tell your dad is she meaning go teach your dad ?
Does your mom tell you something mean usurping authority over you? If doesnt why would she slap your back side? Jesus didnt say go tell them something HE gave her a direct order to go proclaim His resurrection GOOD NEWS
God will use women when there are no men to use. He used Deborah.
How does the case of Deborah constitutes female bishops? It speaks volumes to how we approach the issue today