Does Pentecostal theology teach Christ as savior with our permission?

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217 thoughts on “Does Pentecostal theology teach Christ as savior with our permission?

    1. Philip Williams many have made themselves self sovereign. When we are self sovereign God must work in our timing, not His. It’s the product of a “me-centered,” fallen world.

  1. Arminianism, by definition, teaches that and Pentecostalism is an Arminian denomination and we can see the extreme and dangerous side of Arminianism in the third wave Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement where we see people teaching that God can’t do anything without our active participation and collaboration.

    1. Gerardo de Dominicis best not to make a blanket statement like that; “Pentecostalism is an Arminian denomination.” I know many Pentecostals who are Reformed Charismatics or are Calvinists. Many reformers are 4 point Calvinists. Also remember that Calvin wasn’t a Calvinist and Jacob Arminius was not an Arminianist. People have over stretched there teaching and theology.

      Tongues for instance, Luther has experienced the gift and Calvin never discredited the gift. God was at work at the time of the Reformation and we cannot discredit that pivotal point in Church history.

    2. Pentecostalism comes (or has its roots) from the “holiness movement” and Methodism, both Arminian movements. Yes, there are Pentecostals from a Calvinist background but the “reformed” theology and approach is the exception not the rule in Pentecostal circles.

    3. Gerardo de Dominicis // if you don’t agree with the 5 points of Calvinism then you are an Arminian, but I think the big part of Christians are somewhere in the middle//

      Are you saying that if someone doesn’t agree with ANY ONE of the 5 points of TULIP, they’re Arminian? That is not accurate, as there are many “4-point Calvinists” or Amyraldians, who hold to all but Limited Atonement (instead, believing in a general atonement).

      Are you saying that if someone REJECTS ALL 5 points of the TULIP, they are Arminian? That is also inaccurate, as classical Arminian theology holds to Total Depravity (see http://evangelicalarminians.org/the-facts-of-salvation-a-summary-of-arminian-theologythe-biblical-doctrines-of-grace/)

      Arminian theologian Roger Olsen says that he vast majority of American Evangelicals are in reality most likely semi-Pelagian in what they actually believe about salvation.

    4. Gerardo de Dominicis But not being a Calvinist doesn’t automatically make them Arminian. There are other systematics regarding soteriology besides those two.

    1. pentecostal theology is a multi-theological system
      It is the essence of first century Christianity rather than a latter day aberration! Latter Day Saints are primarily dispensational in their theology.

  2. Original Pentecostals were most certainly Wesleyan Armenian There is absolutely no doubt about that We may not be certain of other things but we know for a fact they emerged from the Wesleyan Armenian tradition Charles Page Thomas Henry Jr. As for Wayne Scott he may be deep into legalism on this one Joe Absher

    1. Philip Williams But Charismatic (or at least continuationist) Calvinists are pretty common these days. Sam Storms, Matt Chandler, Matt Slick, D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, etc.

    2. Thomas Henry Jr. //The question should be asked can one be Holiness and Calvinist?//

      With the Young, Restless, and Reformed crowd’s love for cigars and craft beers, probably not.

    3. Brian Roden beers? There is scripture where God tells Israel to drink strong drink — beer.

      Are you pushing the women temperance Movement view on drinking that was adopted by American Holiness Churches????

    4. Philip Williams it is the Hoky Spirit that works in us — sanctification and if we yield to the Holy Spirit instead of resisting him we won’t yield to the lust of the flesh.

    5. Thomas Henry Jr. Brian Roden these Reformed may acknowledge a Scriptural support for continuation of gifts, but it is not something that they have experienced or possess.

    6. Philip Williams you can go to hell for lying. I met more undercover Pentecostal preachers caught in more sins than I have calvinists. I was a Calvinist long before being baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. You are really confusing HOLINESS with Pentecostalism. Not all Pentecostals are Pentecostal-Holiness believers

  3. I’m not here to have a who has the better credentials contest. I’m here to CONTEND for the Faith. A faith that is both REFORMED and PENTECOSTAL minus the errors of the Holiness Movement that were legalistic and works-based and negated the sufficiency of the Cross.

  4. Thomas Henry Jr. do you know how badly alcoholism was destroying the families of America?

    Trying to censure the evils of drinking to help families is some kind of sin?

  5. Philip Williams that Movement didn’t know scripture and was legalistic. I’m thankful the Holy Spirit delivered some from it. Sadly, man in his sinful ways is always trying to do God’s work — God saves me
    He justifies me
    He sanctifies
    He will one day glorify me

    Romans chapter 8

  6. Philip Williams the Bible says drinking isn’t a sin PERIOD

    THE BIBLE says drunkenness/alcoholism is the SIN.

    What’s lawful for you if you never was an alcoholic is not lawful for the alcoholic. That’s Bible or are we trying to twist scripture to justify faulty holiness teachings that started with the Kentucky women temperance Movement?!

  7. Philip Williams. You didn’t read as I expected.

    If it’s a sin for your brother the alcoholic then you don’t exercise your liberty around them so as not to become a point of stumbling. I REPEAT DRUNKENNESS IS THE SIN not DRINKING

  8. Thomas Henry Jr.

    “Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭8:9-13‬ ‭NIV‬‬
    https://www.bible.com/111/1co.8.9-13.niv

  9. Permission? Are you kindling me? I got on my knees and begged God to save me. I was hell bound for sure with no excuses and no help apart from Jesus Christ. His promise to receive and pardon and make new. You guys fuss about the dumbest stuff

  10. Philip Williams //these Reformed may acknowledge a Scriptural support for continuation of gifts, but it is not something that they have experienced or possess.//

    I know for a fact that both Matt Slick and Sam Storms speak in tongues, so the last part of your statement is unfounded.

  11. Thomas Henry Jr. I was just trying to make a joke about what holiness groups traditionally consider taboo that the YRR crowd enjoys.

    Guess my humor needed the gift of interpretation.

  12. Thomas Henry Jr. //conformation bias//

    The Scriptures actually do have a bias toward us being conformed to the image of Christ (see what I did with a one-letter typo?)

  13. Philip Williams I was taught that when you have to launch into name calling — you have no argument. You spoke of an oxymoron and I rebutted. You continue to result to name calling. I stand flat footed on Scripture… you judged those of us who were reformed and said only Pentecostals who were reformed left because of sin.

    My friend, I forgive you because I know Christ and his love — redemptive love flows through me.

    I condemned a dogma posited by the Kentucky Women Temperance Movement that has been picked up by Holiness Churches and taught as Bible doctrine. Such teachings has rendered the word of God powerless and taught for doctrine a legalistic commandment of men — Mat 15.

  14. Philip Williams I’m not attacking GOOD women. I’m attacking their misguided logic and FALSE TEACHINGS. If you calling them GOOD then Carlton Pearson must no longer be a false teacher?!

  15. Philip Williams the name calling says you taken this personal. Are you related to those misguided ladies of the Kentucky Women Temperance Movement who introduce this false teaching???? That might explain your anger here.

  16. Philip Williams I’m saved, #1

    I am Holy Spirit-filled, #2

    I’m biblically and politically conservative—so there is no way you will convince me that the KWTM preached truth

  17. Thomas Henry Jr. like this?

    “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”
    ‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬
    https://www.bible.com/111/jas.2.14-17.niv

  18. Thomas Henry Jr.

    ““Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.””
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:24-27‬ ‭NIV‬‬
    https://www.bible.com/111/mat.7.24-27.niv

  19. Philip Williams James says if you want evidence of my salvation— then he can prove to YOU not GOD that he is saved by the WORKS THAT FLOW OUT OF SALVATION. We don’t work to be saved. We work BECAUSE (Eph 2) we ARE SAVED.

  20. Philip Williams eisegeting again— Arminianism believes in the false works based salvation that has to HELP THE CROSS OF CHRIST OUT. Roman Catholicism repackaged as Holiness legalism

  21. Philip Williams that new covenant has two commandments too — love God with all you are

    Love your neighbor as yourself

    You do these things that means salvation has been wrought in your life and works are flowing out of that salvation

  22. Philip Williams WRONG… dude you going to make me really post all the sinners in the Holiness Pentecostal Movement who will see hell fires ? according to your heretical teachings

  23. Philip Williams a long time ago. Led many to Christ, cast out devils, etc TO GOD BE ALL GLORY.

    I’m ready to lead you to Christ as Savior. Salvation is a free gift — no works required Unless any man should BOAST

  24. Philip Williams I planned to hear him say Servant Well done. If he could used a racist like Charles Parham he can surely use a Pentecostal Calvinist like me who holds scriptures HIGH. Each day acknowledging the grace of God that saves a wretch like me. Wasn’t fit to live and wasn’t even ready to die. But God drew me unto himself— reconciling me with his grace!

  25. Philip Williams the early church was excite about their salvation to the point of giving their lives. I’m given mines tonight with all the verbal abuse you have dole out here as you pushed a false dogma as works-based salvation. Thanks for the persecution

  26. I feel we are welcome to Teach Christ I would say Jesus Christ as our Savior with a Capital S, your permission. I think you would Word it a little different way. But I believe we would have your Permission to teach Jesus Christ as Savior.

  27. Philip Williams GOOD NIGHT… stop twisting Calvinism. Only Arminianism twists dogma— the Roman Catholic and the Holiness Movement are two sides of the same WORKS-based coin.

  28. Philip Williams Thomas Henry Jr. what was the bottom line of yalls conversation? I am aware that Calvinists are too quick to put Arminius with Pelagius but Arminianism is not Pelagianism I am only aware of 2 writings by Pelagius I’ve discussed with Link Hudson and Joe Absher I can see why based on them Wayne Scott is staying out of this one – the writings leave him with no ammo

    Around 418 Pelagius was asked by Albina, Pinianus, and Melania, wealthy Roman converts to Christianity,
    to provide a written condemnation of all that had been alleged against him. In response he provided the following
    anathema in their presence. It is unclear whether this is the complete written statement or just a fragment. It is found
    quoted in Augustine of Hippo’s two part work “On The Grace Of Christ, And On Original Sin”.

    “I anathematize the man who either thinks or says that the grace of God, whereby ‘Christ Jesus came into the world to
    save sinners,’ is not necessary not only for every hour and for every moment, but also for every act of our lives: and
    those who endeavor to disannul it deserve everlasting punishment.”

    -Signed by Pelagius http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/arminianism-is-not-pelagianism/

    1. I’ve studied Pelagius quite extensively and find few problems. I love his adherence to biblical saving grace as described by Paul in Titus 2:11-14. Before reading him I’d defined it the same way. He was falsely accused by Augustine of denying the need for God’s grace solely because he rejected Augustine’s redefining it into irresistible grace which guarantees the unconditional acceptance of the elect.

    2. Arminius was not a Pelagian rather he was a classical Arminian. There people today who hold to classical Arminian views. I believe that most people today who hold to Arminianism are Pelagian. The belief stand with the denial of original sin.

  29. Depends on how you define “force”

    Jonah is an example of influence and response, not cause and effect (see Arminian theologian F. Leroy Forlines “Classical Arminianism”). God didn’t mechanistically flip a switch and change Jonah’s mind (cause and effect), but used circumstances to convince Jonah to repent and obey the charge God had given him to preach to Nineveh (influence and response).

  30. Brian Roden used circumstances? When you say circumstances do you mean when Jonah was disobeying and running the opposite way of where God wanted him to go and then God caused such bad storm that Jonah would fall into the ocean and a giant fish came and swallowed him up and forcefully took him and spit him back onto land right where God wanted him?

  31. Wayne Scott NO need to duplicate my posts if yould like to engage in a theological discussion on legalism. If you dont waste your time to spam the group and instead stop to think for a minute you will for yourself how unBiblical your statement here is

    *I understand legalism to be “trying to be righteous by keeping a list of rules.”

    1. I’m not sure that defines legalism, is that what you think. Abiding by rules in and of itself is no necessarily negative.

      The practice of expecting and condemning other for not keeping “your” rules maybe legalism.

    2. I dont think it defines or redifines it As usual Wayne Scott has copy pasted some ready-to-go out of the box topic from another group that does not fit Pentecostal theology at all. Legalism among before all things starts with the legality of the law – not just any rules. Not even man made rules but the matter of the LAW

    3. Charles Page If memory serves, that’s how Gordon Fee defined legalism: expecting others to abide by what God has told YOU is right or wrong through your conscience (as opposed to explicit commands of Scripture)

    1. Thomas Henry Jr. I’m surprised how many Pentecostals believe we are saved by grace plus works. I didn’t even know that was a thing in Pentecostal theology.

    2. Kelly Crites oneness are Holiness-Pentecostals but most are Trinitarian like COGIC, COG & etc. The Assemblies of God is “finished work” Pentecostal. I find this thread troubling

    3. Thomas Henry Jr. do you believe in some born to heaven and some to go to hell. Jesus died for everyone to go to Heaven. But He gave them a choice and the take the way of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. But they had a choice not to eat Of that tree. But they listen to the devil instead of God. The same as people today. They have a choice to go to Heaven. But if they listen to the devil they won’t go. But that’s isn’t Gods fault. They have a choice to go to Heaven. That’s what they believe. Also if you have been saved once. They never have to ask forgiveness again. You can do any sin you want to and still go to Haven. Is that what you believe?

    4. Louise Cummings you assuming God was blind to what Adam and Eve or he planned it? I believe like scripture whom God foreknew then He God also called – Romans 8. But no you are not correctly articulating Reformed belief nor do you seem to understand Paul in Romans 8

    5. Thomas Henry Jr. yes I understand perfectly. Read the whole chapter. He predestination us all for Heaven. He knew you before you was ever born. But to the ones that are going to serve Him, it is never the person that is predestined, but rather the Plan. What makes one think I’m so special that He said He made me to go. I’m special. But my brother , well he wasn’t quite as special. He wasn’t in the predestine group. Well I hate it. I would like to see him there , but he wasn’t good enough. He just wasn’t special enough. Why do you need a preacher to lead you to the Lord , if He has already got it fixed. I’ll agree , He is all knowing. But it’s isn’t that He loved one more than than the other. He loves us all and paid a great price that no one would have to go to Hell. You do that as your choice. Not Gods. I would look into the whole chapter.

    6. You can not be saved by works. That’s believing the law could save you. The law taught you what sin was. It took a Spotless Blood , Of The Man Called Jesus, to get saved. It is by Grace through Faith in the Shed Blood Of Jesus. Is the only through believing in Him, That Jesus Christ Is Lord. That’s the way to Jesus. It could never be by works , lest any man can boast. Is what the Bible says. You could never do anything to earn you way through works.

    7. I love everyone.no matter what they believe. But I just want them to be sure things are right between them and God. And not just take it for granite. You might be a Christian. I’m not your judge. If you believe in the Shed.blood of Jesus. And that He is The Son Of God. And been born again. That’s the way to Salvation. I’m not saying you are not a Christian. And you are special. God Made you special. I was just making a point. Everyone is special to God. That why He sent His Son to die for us. He didn’t want any of His creation to go to hell. Everyone is special to God. I guess I could have not used it that plain as you and your brother. Because you both are special to God and to me. But I don’t want anyone else to be lost either. By teaching a false doctrine. Or I believe it a false doctrine.

    8. Thomas Henry Jr. He foreknew is all before we ever got here in the world. No God is not Blind to anything. He Knows all things. We can’t hid anything from God. He knew where Adam was all the time. Just like He knows where we are. He is All Knowing. , All Powerful, and Omnipresent , everywhere at the same time. Nothing will ever be hid from God. Not even Adam. He knew where he was. And what he had done. That’s the reason He started making a Way for the Son Of God to be born in the world , to make a Way back to God. Through the seed of a woman , not of a man. He was The Word Of God Made flesh, The Lamb Of God. Because the blood of bulls and goats blood. Couldn’t pay for sin. It had to be a Spotless Lamb. His Name was called Jesus , because He was the only Spotless Lamb , that forgive men form their sin.

    9. Louise Cummings You still didn’t correct your statement when you said “Louise Cummings Thomas Henry Jr. yes I understand perfectly. Read the whole chapter. He predestination us all for Heaven. He knew you before you was ever born. But to the ones that are going to serve Him, it is never the person that is predestined, but rather the Plan.”

      But thanks for the dialogue. You still have not convince and will not that we can LOSE OUR SALVATION. You cannot lose that which you cannot earn and did nothing beyond believe to get.

      Only sinful mankind fights and argue for a system that leaves him or her in charge of their own salvation. Romans 8 is very clear.

      WHOM HE (GOD) foreknew THEM HE (GOD) also
      CALLS
      ELECTS
      JUSTIFIES
      SANCTIFIES
      GLORIFIES

      All we do is believe. God does the rest as it relates to salvation. Which is why Paul tells us to quench not the Holy Spirit of God. God works in believers to will and do of his God pleasure.

      You may have a hard time believing Paul the Apostle, but there is no ambiguity in that text in Romans whatsoever. There are more than enough Scripture to support it.

      Arminians tend to fight this true so I expect you to continue arguing without any scriptural merit.

      Grace be unto you!
      ++Thomas

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