Can a believer backslide and lose salvation?
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| Aberdeen Chan | God does disqualify believers from salvation.Under these 5 circumstances, believers may risk being disqualified for their salvation. And only those who overcome, God will not blot those believers’ name out of the Book of Life.1: Continual living in sin (Jude 5, 1 Corinthians 10:1-11, Hebrews 10:26-27)2: Willful denial(2 Timothy 2:12, Hebrews 6: 4-8)3: Failure to overcome deception(2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, 2 Timothy 3:12-13, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 Timothy 4:16, Matthew 24:10b-13)4: Presumptuous faith(Matthew 7: 20-23, Luke 18: 11-12, Revelation 3:15-17)5: Failure to persevere(Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13)’He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments. I will not blot his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.’ – Revelation 3:5 | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | Thanks for this. Doing a bit of a study. I will look into it | |||
| Nora Neel-Toney | Yes | |||
| Benjamin Serra | Yes. Luke 8:13 also. | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | Sorry if its ok do u mind pasting it on here. Just using my mobile please | |||
| Benjamin Serra | They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. | |||
| Xube Shakespeare | Nope | |||
| Mariah Marie | Of course It is | |||
| John Duncan | Yes according to SCRIPTURES…•Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) “And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. •Galatians 5:4 “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” •John 15:5-6 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” •Romans 11:19-23 “You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.” •Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. •Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.” •Hebrews 10:38-39 “But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.” •Acts 20:17,28-30 “And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.” … “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” •1 Timothy 1:18-21 “fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander” •2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some. •1 Timothy 4:1 “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” •1 Timothy 6:20-21 “O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.” •2 Peter 2:1 “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.” •2 Peter 3:17 “You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness” •2 John 8-9 “Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.” •1 Timothy 6:9-10 “But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.” •2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”” •James 5:19-20 “My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.” •Revelation 2:4-5 “‘But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. ‘Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent.” •Revelation 3:5 “‘He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels. •Revelation 3:16-17 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked” •Ezekiel 18:24-26 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? “When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.” | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | Yes – 2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2Pe 2:22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” | |||
| Billy Winneroski | For those who claim “no,” I have a question: didn’t God give us free will? If He DID (which we all know he did, that’s how Adam and Eve sinned) can’t we freely choose to walk away from our salvation? Or….is our free will taken away, when we accept Christ as Savior? | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | Exactly. I do not believe every time we mess up that God blots our names out. We can however CHOOSE (by free will) to live a lifestyle in rebellion against God that ultimately causes one to turn their backs on God. In Gods mercy the Holy Spirit will convict us and He will attempt to turn us back to Him even if it means chastisement. However our free will over rides Gods will for our life. | |||
| Billy Winneroski | Vernon Dalton I believe that’s what the Bible was addressing when it talks about “didn’t we do this in Your Name,” and the Father says “depart from Me” | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | And out of the Fathers love He gave them every opportunity to repent | |||
| Sherry Tilley ArmijoSherry | If you look at the finished work at the cross Jesus paying for All sins past ,present and the future says it All. Vernon knows I am Spirit filled and agree most of Pentecostal theology except for this part. We must study to show ourselves approved and each one of us has to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I can argue both sides because I know both sides but this is what God has revealed to me. Oh the blood of Jesus that washes us free of every sin Not just the sins before salvation.. if you even think a bad thought about someone. The bible says we have murdered them.. if we look at a woman or man in desire and lust we have committed adultery. My Jesus died for All sins.. Jesus is the only 1 who is sinless. A true born again Christian takes up his cross daily for the Lord. And when he messes up God is just and faithful to forgive him. | |||
| Sherry Tilley ArmijoSherry | So which sin will send a person to hell? | |||
| Sherry Tilley ArmijoSherry | And how many times before it’s a sin that sends me to hell | |||
| Billy Winneroski | Sherry Tilley Armijo BUT…..if we REJECT, WILLINGLY His Gift, by walking away…that’s on us…not Him | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | Its a tough subject this one i believe.Billy i see matthew 7 21-23 is not talking to someone who was a believer at all. If u read closely its about ppl who are claiming their works are sufficient for salvation, they are bragging about it. And according to scripture even if u commit one sin u r guilty of them all. And without faith we will be judged on our works thats why in verse 23 he says depart from me you workers of eniquity. And another clue that they were not saved is the fact that he said i never knew u. If they were saved at one moment the lord would of said i used to know u but hes words was i never knew u | |||
| Billy Winneroski | Aaron Michael here’s something else someone else brought up in this thread….when the Archangel Lucifer was the ‘Angel of Light,’ didn’t he, himself ‘lose his salvation?’ And as an angel….specifically an archangel…the HIGHEST of ALL angels, wouldn’t his “falling” be an indication that if an angel can ‘lose his salvation,’ that we, as humans can, too? | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | Billy Winneroski it is interesting i believe. Because i havent found any scriptures to show any promises in which he made to the angels if that makes sense.What i mean iam not sure how the angels and God work.The whole bible is about man and God. And there is promises after promises between the two I just cant see anything that says angels fall in this category. | |||
| Billy Winneroski | Aaron Michael but do you believe the angels that didn’t “fall” with Lucifer, can sin? Because, wasn’t it Lucifer’s sin of trying to overthrow God? So, in theory, the angels were given free will (hence why Lucifer could willingly choose to try that coup) BEFORE Lucifer fell | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | Billy Winneroski u r right angels have free will. But i just cant see any promises in scripture that he made for the angels but many promises from God to man.So my only assumption would be a different covenant | |||
| William Sterling | Billy Winneroski that was my question. Thank you for fleshing it out a bit more. Its deep stuff. | |||
| Billy Winneroski | Aaron Michael see I don’t think angels have “free will,” NOW…otherwise, they could still choose to sin, as Lucifer and the 1/3 of angels did | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | Billy Winneroski i must admit i really have no clue. Iv never done a study on that one before | |||
| Billy Winneroski | Aaron Michael but it does make you wonder | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | Billy Winneroski it does for sure | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | Good arguments to answer your question can be found in Calvinism-Arminianism debates. I personally believe that you can’t. For the “no†camp check out this page: http://www.thecalvinist.net. | |||
| John B. Gaither | I am not Calvinist. Yes know Jesus has me, but I do not have a License to Sin. Walk carefully. Philippians 2:12-13 (NKJV)12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.1 John 2:19 (NKJV)19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.Romans 1:28-32 (NKJV)28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (NKJV)12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.†| |||
| Sherry Tilley ArmijoSherry | Romans 11:29 For God’s gifts and callings are irrevocable and salvation is a gift. ETERNAL LIFE IS FOREVER IF YOU ARE TRULY.BORN AGAIN | |||
| Andrew T. Stube | I think if we grieve the Holy Spirit, may have a shot at it. Aren’t we asked to endure to the end to be saved? | |||
| Rob Kenerly | No | |||
| Sherry Tilley ArmijoSherry | A lot of people have ” knowledge” of God but they don’t have a relationship with God. Most of the verses I see in this thread are talking to lost people. We All all must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. | |||
| Sherry Tilley ArmijoSherry | True born again christians will endure to the end | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | Who is it that can get blotted out if the book of life? | |||
| Sherry Tilley ArmijoSherry | There are numerous books God has.. I personally think everyone’s name is written in book of life and the ones who never are born again.. there names are blotted out. There is also a book of remenberence God has.. he has many books. I love you tho Vernon and respect you a Great deal. This is something you know I’ve been wrestling with for awhile now and this is what the Holy Spirit has shown me. | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | You have to look at whom Jesus was addressing here. He wasn’t talking to the lost but warning the church of Sardis to repent. He was telling the church (made up of saved people) that if they didn’t repent their names would be blotted out of the book of life. The bible says if your name isn’t in the book of life you will be cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15. | |||
| Sherry Tilley ArmijoSherry | Many in the church especially the Corinthian church practicing incest and all kinds of sins.. many in church then and now are loster than last year’s Easter eggs and have never been born again | |||
| William Sterling | I think a popular support for the “no” answer is John 10:28:”and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”Personally, my reading of that passage only supports the idea that nobody else can cause me to lose my salvation. Nobody can snatch me out of his hand. What would stop me from intentionally leaving his hand, though? Otherwise, I don’t truly have free will. | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | I think i agree with u This one is powerful as well because it says we will not come into judgement/condemnation so this supports once we believe we are sealed.24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. | |||
| Robert Cox | Can’t “lose” it but you can reject it. Otherwise, no free will. | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | If the christian is made free when he believes in Christ and becomes servant (slave) of God, we aren’t our own anymore. A slave has free will to reject Christ and lose his salvation? Can the slave’s will overcome the will of his master? Is the servant more powerful than his Lord? | |||
| Robert Cox | Gerardo de Dominicis did Paul say to examine yourself to see if you’re in the faith? Does he warn us to take heed lest we fall? I’m not gonna argue this. If you’re osas, that’s your belief. It’s certainly not mine. I follow Jesus, not John Calvin. | |||
| Robert Cox | I’ve never heard of osas in any Pentecostal circle I’ve been in. | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | Because some might believe they are Christians when in reality they are only following a religion, not being born from above. He’s addressing those in the church that call themselves Christians but they lack the true experience of God because they are still dead in their transgressions and sins. By the way, Calvin didn’t teach OSAS (that’s Baptist slang for the doctrine) he taught the perseverance of the saints. I don’t follow Calvin but he was a great man of God, even Arminius himself had Calvin in great consideration. | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | Robert Cox because Pentecostals are arminians, that’s why. | |||
| Robert Cox | BTW…..yes. Slaves can and did run off. Just saying. | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | I know brother but Christ is a good master. Who would want to depart from him? We are his servants but also his children. | |||
| Richard Hebert Jr. | Gerardo de Dominicis that doesn’t square with John 15:15, and even though Peter denied him, Peter was not lost, now was he? | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | If someone can’t lose their salvation then who is being referred to as possibly having their names blotted out if the book of life? | |||
| William Sterling | And how did the angel of light become our adversary? | |||
| Richard Hebert Jr. | false teachers etc. | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | Richard Hebert Jr. Jesus was talking to the church at Sardis. | |||
| Richard Hebert Jr. | Vernon Dalton oh, so you’re exempt from the works of Sardis? rethink that | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | Richard Hebert Jr. ??? | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | What I’m saying is that Jesus addressed the church (saved people) to repent or they would be blotted from the book of life. Anyone not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Therefore you can lose your salvation | |||
| Richard Hebert Jr. | Vernon Dalton False teachers teach out their own understanding. This is flesh, not Spirit; rather falsely by works, not rightly through faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The Holy Spirit is the teacher and mentor of the saints, so get the Holy SPirit wth all oyur getting and you won’t stumble. AND DON’T LET FALLABLE MEN CONTRADICT THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOUR HEART AND MIND. False teachers are everywhere, laying in wait to deceive and take the dsaints out of Christ’s hand, if it were possible ( It is not possible) Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is another matter. But what born-again Spirit filled would do such a thing? Answer: not one of us. 😉 | |||
| Will Sovie | Yup | |||
| Will Sovie | It’s called backsliding . | |||
| Will Sovie | That’s why the Bible says to be Watchful and ready | |||
| Randy H JohnsonRandy | You don’t receive all of your salvation when you are born again. You receive the new birth of your human spirit, which is the point of beginning of your salvation, and the authority to become a son of God through the renewing of your mind, the second part of your salvation, so that you are qualified by the Holy Spirit to receive the third part of your salvation, the resurrection of your physical body unto eternal life in the kingdom of God.You may not be able to “lose” you salvation, but you can certainly fail to receive all of it. | |||
| William Sterling | Respectfully, I think you’ve combined the concepts of salvation and sanctification. Salvation is instantaneous whereas sanctification is a process.Romans 10:9 “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;”Acts 16:31 “They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”” | |||
| Rob Kenerly | William Sterling actually, sanctification is instant, living it out isn’t. | |||
| Randy H JohnsonRandy | William Sterling 1 Peter 1:3-11 describes salvation in three tenses – past, present and future.The new birth is the past tense (v. 3) “In his great mercy he has given us new birth…”,present tense (v.9) ” for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.”future tense (v.5) “until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.”The new birth is the salvation of our spirit and is an event that occurs at a specific moment in time.The salvation of our souls is the renewing of our minds and is a process that occurs over time.The salvation of our bodies is a hope, and occurs in the future to complete our salvation. | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | William Sterling Also this one 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | So God justifies us when we believe and then he can unjustify us? Justification is a declaration of inocence made upon the basis of believing in Christ. In this sense only unbelief in Christ could be the only reason to be “unsaved†but then you have to deal with the verses that deal with faith being giving to us by God and the gifts of God are irrevocable. | |||
| Richard Hebert Jr. | wrong. you cannot earn your way, the gift of the Holy Spirit is freely given, when given, and that seals one unto redemption. Get the Holy Spirit or join JWs if you believe works gets you points with Our Savior. good luck with that “cake unturned” teaching | |||
| Richard Hebert Jr. | Randy H Johnson saved by grace through faith. Mercy is another subject. Even Paul confessed that he knew not sin but by the Holy Spirit, to which sin revived and he died. Only the Holy Spirit can perfect us in Christ. Get it yet? | |||
| Robert Webster | Yes. Read Hebrews. | |||
| Ed Lane | No | |||
| Ken Massie | YES!!! Your name can be blotted out of the Lambs book of life, that means you can lose what you once had. | |||
| Xube Shakespeare | Nope. | |||
| Ken Massie | So you dont believe what scripture says…interesting | |||
| William Sterling | Xube Shakespeare can we dig a little deeper than “nope”? | |||
| Xube Shakespeare | I commented we can discuss there â˜ºï¸ | |||
| Xube Shakespeare | Everyone that say yes I have a question. What you’re basically saying is that God has the power to save BUT doesn’t have the power to keep His sheep? | |||
| Bill Stockham | GOD DOES NOT KEEP US AGAINST OUR WILL… | |||
| William Sterling | God doesn’t force his will on anyone, hence original sin / Israel having a king / etc.The greatest commandment is to love God. If I didn’t have a choice in the matter, could it really be called love? | |||
| Xube Shakespeare | Bill do you not understand how salvation works. | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | You are right Xube. The “yes†camp believe that they can overcome God’s will for them. They believe that the servant’s (Christians) will has more power that the will of the Master (God). They believe in a weak god. | |||
| Randy H JohnsonRandy | Of course he has the power to keep his sheep from any external force. | |||
| Michael Todd Combs | You can’t “lose†it, but you can turn your back on it. | |||
| Vince Oblak II | Part two of the op if I may: So if one can “lose†their salvation, can they gain it back again. If so, how many times? If not, why? | |||
| Bill Moe Moore | His mercie are renewed every morning | |||
| Vince Oblak II | So in the practical sense God whites out or backspaces over the name, only to rewrite it again and again? Millions of times possibly? | |||
| Bill Moe Moore | Hmmm.. Never knew anyone that backslid and returned to their First Love a million times. Have you? | |||
| Vince Oblak II | We’re not talking about human-human relationships here. I have indeed known people who have broken up many times only to return to each other but inevitably one party eventually refuses to except the other back. Could it be so with God? How many times is going to keep rewriting a name over old whiteout? Doesn’t sound like an omniscient being to me is all. | |||
| Bill Moe Moore | #1. It’s not our place to Judge anyone to their deaths final resting place. #2. The Word does say that God will BLOT OUT YOUR NAME, for certain. Go read the final verses of Matthew 25. Jesus told these people that He never knew them, yet they performed many works only a Believer could have. | |||
| Bill Moe Moore | Get SOLD OUT, THE WHOLE ROUTE and this argument won’t hold water, won’t matter | |||
| Vince Oblak II | Bill Moe Moore But if he never actually knew them it would seem they were never his. 2 Tim 2:19 | |||
| Bill Moe Moore | Stay in The Vine brother, and you, me shall not be cast in the Fire to be burned. Jesus said, If you love me, you’ll keep my COMMANDMENTS. There’s got to be some opposite to that. Keep His COMMANDMENTS and be BLESSED! 😊 | |||
| Vince Oblak II | Bill Moe Moore The final parable of Matt 25 mentions no miracles being performed. Any of the acts therein mentioned can and are being performed by humanitarians on a daily basis the world over. | |||
| Bill Moe Moore | Casting out demons? I think not sir. | |||
| Vince Oblak II | Bill Moe Moore Where in the final 30+ verses of Matt 25 are you seeing that? | |||
| Randy H JohnsonRandy | You don’t lose your salvation on earth. You lose it at the judgement seat of Christ. | |||
| Jeff Latham | I believe Judas cast out demons and we know what his end was. | |||
| Brenda Smith | God does have the power to keep, no one can remove you from the Father’s hand, but you can willfully walk away. He will not keep you against your will. Jesus said in John 15.. He is the vine, we the branches. If we abide in him, we bare fruit. He said, if ye abide not in him, as a branch, you are cast forth and will wither, destined to be burned. To not abide, infers you walked away. | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | You forget that the branches don’t sustain the tree but the tree sustain the branches and in Romans we read that is by faith that the branches are in the tree but faith is given by God to his children, so losing your faith would mean that God withdraw his gift of faith from you and that’s unbiblical. | |||
| Bill Moe Moore | Like me LOSING my motorcycle….I can choose to reject my Bike by not riding, cleaning, caring, or starting it. But it’s kinda hard to lose a Yamaha 1600 Roadstar. | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | You can choose to sell your bike. People sale out their salvation for the love of the world | |||
| Kenneth LaTampa | Yes | |||
| Mitchell Effie Catron | Is that like once saved, , always saved, if that’s the way it is, just get saved and do whatever you want. I believe you can turn away from God, but it’s you that chooses to. | |||
| Xube Shakespeare | Those who truly belong to Christ no longer desires to continue in the way of the world. | |||
| Jacquelynn Elaine | We walk away from Christ. Christ doesn’t walk away from us. It’s called back sliding. Can we go back to Christ? Yes.. But there is O such thing as the lie once saved always saved. | |||
| Xube Shakespeare | John 10: 27-29 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand. | |||
| Vernon DaltonVernon | Xube Shakespeare . What bible translation is this? | |||
| Curtis Fenison | Who has bewitched you to return to a law to keep you saved? You have fallen from grace. Return to faith is Jesus Alone. Do not put your trust in a doctrine of law to save you. Your not saved nor kept saved by a doctrine or a law. That would be trying to keep a law to be or stay saved. Your saved by by surrendering your will to God By faith in Jesus. Galatians 3:2 (KJV)This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;The question is not can you lose your faith. That is fallacious reasoning. The question is are you abiding in Christ. Have you denied the faith by trusting in a law to keep you saved. Galatians 3:12 (KJV) 12 And the law is not of faith: | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | Indeed you have make a good point. To believe that you can lose your salvation means two things: 1. you have to perform good in order to keep it (works salvation) and 2. If so, then God is a liar and a weak God that can’t keep his promises of giving eternal life, preserving the sheep and the seal of the Holy Spirit (the guarantee of our deposit) means nothing. | |||
| Isara Mo | Are rights ever taken away…..or are they forfeited?The Bible says ” yet to all who received Him…who believed in His name he gave them the RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD… | |||
| Alex Wick | You can lose your salvation if you walk away from God. | |||
| Jim GillesJim | Of course. | |||
| Leah Norkus Kraus | No | |||
| David Singh | Absolutely NOT! One can never lose one’s salvation. Anyone wants to challenge me on this, bring it on! | |||
| Billy Winneroski | So we lose FREE WILL when we come to a saving knowledge of Christ?? | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | No, but your will become slave to the will of God. The same way you used to be a sinner, sold to sin, now you are a saint bought by God. You are not longer your own. | |||
| Billy Winneroski | Gerardo de Dominicis right….but just like you “walked away” from your life of sin…which by your own admission you were a slave to….can’t you walk away from Christ, even being His ‘slave?’ | |||
| Nolin Daniels | Once a child of God always a child of God…For His Word said so | |||
| Gerardo de Dominicis | If you walked away from sin was because of God’s grace. He called you and he made you his Son, not because of your will but because of His will (John 1:13). | |||
| David Singh | You folks don’t fully understand the the plan of salvation and how it works. Man is made up of Spirit, Soul and Body. When one genuinely accepts Jesus as savior his spirit is saved and he cannot sin 1 John 3:9. No one soul is saved, it is being saved, and his body will be saved later on. The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to teach us the truths of God that will bring us into the Tabernacle Age. Right now we are living in the Pentecostal Age, or the holy place in Moses Tabernacle. So when one is born again his spirit is eternally saved and he cannot lose his salvation. Paul teaches that full salvation is progressive, spirit, soul and body. Justification, Sanctification and Glorification. | |||
| Nolin Daniels | There’s a part in the scripture saying ones a child of God always a child of God…and i supose there’s nothing we can do about it… | |||
| Ed Brewer | ‘lose’ it? no…..abandon it? yes | |||
| Jesse Morrell | The unforgiving servant did and so did the unfaithful servant | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | Hey jesse i have only access on my phone. Can u please paste the scriptures | |||
| Jesse Morrell | Aaron Michael Luk 12:46 – The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers | |||
| Jesse Morrell | Mat 18:34 – And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him | |||
| Aaron MichaelAaron | Jesse Morrell thanks Jesse really appreciate it | |||
| Thomas Henry Jr. | No. You can’t lose your salvation | |||
| Ken Hupp | If you cant why was Paul so fearful of losing his? | |||
| Thomas Henry Jr. | You cannot lose that you did not WORK to get. If you can lose it then salvation is no longer by grace through faith….it is now based on works | |||
| Thomas Henry Jr. | Romans 8 | |||
| Ken Hupp | You depend on Christ to keep you from falling away,but just as satan did a fool can choose to sin and not repent and throw away his salvation if this wasnt true why so many warnin in the Bible about it?second if your correct,why bother being repentant?your going to Heaven anyway | |||
| Thomas Henry Jr. | Ken Hupp i don’t need your eisegesis. IF YOU CAN LOSE IT THEN IT IS BASED ON WORKS. Romans 8 | |||
| Thomas Henry Jr. | Enough said | |||
| Ken Hupp | Works without Faith is dead,and Faith without works is just as dead | |||
| Ken Hupp | If I have faith and dont do as the Lord taught,Im worthless to him | |||
| Thomas Henry Jr. | Ken Hupp works FLOW FROM SALVATION.I knew you would go there and twist scripture | |||
| Ken Hupp | NOPEE!!!! | |||
| Thomas Henry Jr. | Romans 8 condemns you | |||
| Thomas Henry Jr. | Ken Hupp yup read Eph 2 | |||
| Thomas Henry Jr. | My salvation is sure go eisegete elsewhere | |||
| Randy H JohnsonRandy | Salvation mean deliverance. The new birth delivers our human spirit from involuntary slavery to sin. But we can become slaves to sin again. The new birth does not exempt us from the second death.The renewing of our minds delivers our minds and bodies from slavery to the practice of sin. But we can become slaves again by practicing sin.The resurrection of our bodies delivers us from physical death. But we can still experience the second death.Paul was writing to believers in Romans 8, not to unregenerated men and women:Romans 8:12-1412 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.These words were written to people who had professed faith in Jesus Christ. | |||
Why wouldn’t he?
The Bible says we must be Holy and righteous to enter heaven. A backslider has sinned.
Nora Neel-Toney is god not married to the backslider ?
Mike Partyka that doesn’t mean that person can sin and go to heaven. The Holy Spirit deals with a person’s heart but if they don’t repent they will not enter heaven. Sin is sin and is not holy
Isn’t that the essence of free will?
he can lose his sanctification for certain!
Child of God can become estranged from the family and wander!
Do they cease being children?
We are adopted in and we can be adopted back out to the devil. Gal 4:5 “To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”
I brought you into this world I can take you out!!
Charles Page Once saved always saved, a lie from hell.
Denis Herve Mercier The father of liars is there
Charles Page No your opinion is wrong.
1 John 3:10
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
There’s more than Jonh 3:16 in the HOLY SCRIPTURES.
OK, let me guess, you are a trinitarian.
Donald Phillips American theologians don’t understand the concept of an adopted son. Learn from Jewish thought. It will change you from Law to Grace.
Yes. A believer can become an unbeliever. Unbelievers will not have eternal life.
We don’t do anything to gain our salvation it is a gift from God called Grace so likewise we cannot loose it at our will
Can a man lose his billfold or his car keys ?
Robert Shannon Fyffe umm I would like to think that you’re not comparing our salvation to a man losing his billfold or car keys. Smh ?
You can even lose your hair to.
Psalm 69:28
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living and the book of life and not be enrolled among the [uncompromisingly] righteous (those upright and in right standing with God).
How are we saved, Repent from all sins, Be baptized in the name of JESUS CHRIST, receive the HOLY GHOST speaking in tongues as the SPIRIT gives the utterance. Then BE HOLY.
Romans 1:28-32
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Paul is talking to the churchgoers. Romans 1:28-32 The believers
It’s not a joke posting Scriptures if you miss quote it. you will be dammed and all who believe your theology.
Yawn.
Better question is at what point are you a backslider? Who determines you backslide enough to lose the free gift of His salvation?
I personally believe in freewill. I personally believe in one having the freewill to choose to become an apostate. One that would totally denounce Jesus.
Yet I think man’s view of a backslider is off from God’s.
Our faith must be in Jesus finished work alone.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
My trust has never been in me, I so pray your faith isn’t in your abilities either.
James Michael Sanders at what point has a person backslid. If you go out and commit adultery, you have sinned, you take up going to bars, getting drunk, lying, cheating and Etc. Do you think you will go to heaven living that kind of lifestyle? If you still consider yourself a child of God, you have backslid. Unless you change your ways, Hell is the next stop.
James Michael Sanders I think its a given that some shall backslide What mainly considers it is their own consciousness
Troy Day I definitely don’t deny that backsliding is possible. I think many backslide and simply don’t know that they have. They think because they are attending church (a building), that they aren’t sleeping around or doing drugs etc that they haven’t backslid. Unfortunately in the American church we set standards of what we view as being backslidden.
Charles Page may have once or twice
Troy Day what bout ‘half backslid’?
I am a Spirit filled Roman Catholic & I believe that a believer can backsilde & lost his/her’s salvation.
a Spirit filled Roman Catholic ?? Philip Williams
Troy Day yes Troy there are Catholics who are Spirit Filled. They have a church near where I live. I’ve know several over the years. Many do leave their church.
Nora Neel-Toney do they dance in the Spirit?
Troy Day I don’t know. Never visited the church. Troy anybody can fake a dance and call it dancing in the Spirit. I’ve seen it
It’s been a longtime movement. It was much smaller in the past (although it had a pretty big uptick in the 60s that faded), but its numbers have increased again from the studies I’ve seen.
Nora Neel-Toney I very strongly doubt that
Troy Day I’ve been around a very long time and I’ve seen things in churches and people’s lives that at first shocked me. Nothing surprises me anymore.
Several years ago I attended a church where the pastor and his wife were best friends with another couple in the church. They took vacations together, etc. It came out that the pastor was having an affair with their friend’s wife. The overseer found out about it and moved the pastor and his wife to another church. The other couple was told not to follow but they did.
The overseer chose to overlook the sin and more or less gave his ok for them to continue in their sinful ways.
Yes I’ve seen people shout one service and the next day have sex with someone in the church.
I strongly doubt what is being said here Isara Mo Joe Absher Philip Williams I’ve never seen anything like that IN church and it perhaps was not even Pentecostal
Yes I truly believe that a person can backslide. In so much as through Time. End up losing their salvation and their birth heritage with our Lord.
Look in the Bible. Where king Saul who was anointed by God. Needed up being a cursed.
This is happen in a Pentecostal Church. When I was a teenager, my Sunday School teacher was having an affair with another woman in the community. Again it was a Pentecostal Church.
I think you can. God sent the prophets, they were killed, God sent His Son, He too was killed but, He would not stay dead. God sent His Holy Spirit if you resist Him, who else is there to send. I do not think the backsliding would be instant, I think it would be a long drawn-out process with God pleading to the end.
Troy Day this is the reformed baptist in me oozing out. The answer is no. God’s elect will not be taken away.
Mike Partyka mike you cannot not sin and go to heaven. I know of the once saved always saved but that is so misleading and will send people to hell.
“You cannot not sin and go to heaven.” That statement to me reflects a lack of understanding of what Jesus accomplished. Jesus dealt with the sin problem once and for all, taking upon Himself the sins of the world. The only thing that can now keep anyone from heaven is unbelief, rejecting the salvation that Jesus provided.
the moment an unbeliever becomes a believer, God sees him/her as a BELIEVER for eternity. God does not look at believers in the flesh but in the spirit. I find the suggestion that “continual belief [is] a necessary condition of salvation” unbelievable. The evidence is overwhelmingly against it.
The Evidence from John 4:13-15:
Ho Pinōn Equals Ho Pisteuōn
When Jesus evangelized the woman at the well, He used the figure of living water to refer to the saving message and the figure of drinking to refer to believing that message.
In v 13 Jesus used a present articular participle, ho pinōn, the one who drinks, as a clear figure for ho pisteuōn, the one who believes. Using Wallace’s reasoning, ho pinōn must refer to a lifetime of drinking.2 Yet Jesus specifically contradicts this, and the woman shows that she understands Him to be speaking of gaining the benefit the very moment one drinks.
“‘Whoever drinks [ho pinōn] of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.’
“The woman said to Him, ‘Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.’”
Jesus doesn’t rebuke her understanding on the permanence of the gift. She understood Him correctly. One drink would quench her thirst forever. She would be eternally secure that very moment. What He corrected was her mistaken notion that He was speaking literally of drinking physical water.
You are soright on this!
Jesus made the Born Again new creations with a new, perfect spirit. No where in the Bible do we see that process reversed. ” For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21). He did it thought we are unworthy because He loves us. He gave us His righteousness and put us in right standing with God irregardless of our performance.
Yes
they’re still fighting about this in the cemet…um, seminaries & Bible schools. Scripture doesn’t make a clear statement one way or the other. Therefore I won’t take a side…much to everyone’s frustration. 🙂
Steve Losee
It is not a question of taking sides…
It is a question of examinng the scriptures and establishing position..
I have examined the Scriptures, and I find boh positions weak due to lack of clear statements. That’s my position.
Rev 3:5
plain and simple Revelation 3:5 NKJV – He who overcomes shall be clothed – how does it relate to OP?
Lindon Frost Mathew 24 24
The one person who couldnt lose his salvation was the robber on the cross whom Jesus told” You will be with me TODAY in paradise”
Other than that, it is my view that ALL without exception has to run the race to the finish line like Paul who said:
I have fought the good fight,
I have finished the race,
I have kept the faith.
Now there is in STORE for me the CROWN of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, WILL AWARD to me
on THAT DAT—and not only to me,
but also to all who have longed for his appearing.//
ON THAT DAY….
John 10:35/ Romans 11:22/ Col 1:23/I Tim 4:1/Heb 3:12/I John 2:24…. it is written
Lindon Frost it is written what? pls explain
Troy Day The Word Of God….. of one can read
Lindon Frost dont think this is pretty general?
Mike Partyka RELEVANCE pls – For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
APOSTASY
1 Tim 1:19-20 ‘having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.’
They had faith and good consciences, but both lost their faith, rejected and shipwrecked.
They had been regenerated, shown evidence of faith and conscience, but blasphemed, and needed to be taught (gr paideuo) as regenerates in 1 Cor 11:32; Titus 2:12-13; Heb 12:5-6.
The only other Christian handed over to Satan was 1 Cor 5:1-5 so he’ll stay saved eternally.
They are all carnal Christians who have denied their faith, and lost rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ , but their spirit is eternally saved.
2 Tim 2:17-19 ‘And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[a] depart from iniquity.”
The same Hymenaeus had destroyed others faith.
‘The Lord knows who are His’ refers to Num 16:5 means God knows who are His leaders are, not God knows who are regenerate Christians. God knows H and A are appointed regenerate leaders who have committed apostasy against His appointed leader Paul.
Apostasy in Hebrews 10:38-39 ‘Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
‘Preserving of the soul’ means maintain physical life, never going to heaven when you die.
Heb 10:26-38 refers to a Carnal Christian ‘righteous one’ (having the righteousness of Christ) ruining his physical life and if he loses his faith then God will be angry with him at the Judgement Seat of Christ, taking his rewards away and not being co-heir with Christ, but going to heaven as a child of God.
Apostasy in Galatians 6:12 ‘As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.’
They had severed himself from Christ (5:2) fallen from grace (5:4) and were liable for judgement by forfeiting their share of rewards in the coming kingdom (5:10).
2 John 8. ‘Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.’
Apostasy in the Last Days in 1 Tim 4:1-3 ‘Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.’
They are regenerate Christians who are contrasted with liars with a seared conscience (V2), the latter non Christians leading these believers away into apostasy.
Denial of the Faith of Christians in 1 Tim 5:8, and apostasy of widows who turn away from the Christian life in 1 Tim 5:14-15
1 Tim 6:21 Timothy, a Christian, is being warned against the possibility of apostasy.
Apostasy of Demas and others.
Philemon 24 Demas was a fellow worker with Paul and Luke in Col 4:14 but deserted the imprisoned Paul and ‘loved this present world’ (2 Tim 4:10)
2 Tim 2:24-26 refers to those in opposition needing to repent ‘leading to knowledge of the truth’ and parallel usage in Tit 1:1 refers to the knowledge of Christians to lead Godly lives.
1 Tim 3:7 parallel passage about being ensnared by the devil clearly refers to believers.
2 Tim 2:24-28 Regenerate believers have fallen from the faith and are opponents of Paul.
The Free Grace partner’s belief is that the combined weight of the warning passages,
the passages illustrating the fact of the carnal Christian,
and the specific biblical illustrations of apostasy,
firmly establish the possible existence of the permanently carnal Christian
who is living a lifestyle of sin or has lost his faith.
After careful examination of the biblical data, the only reason for believing this is not true, that carnal Christians can’t exist, is ‘my denomination believes something different.’
Scripture doesn’t prove that those who believe will keep their faith to the final hour.
Scripture guarantees that God’s faithfulness is independent of man’s faith.
‘If we are faithless, God will remain faithful.’
The sense of moral revulsion that God would allow a sinning Christian to enter heaven, betrays a lack of appreciation of grace in our lives, and the motive behind Lordship Salvation exegesis.
RichardAnna Boyce I think you meant to post this on the thread about doctrinal positions with least Biblical support
Rick Ferguson no, as it relates to backsliding, even apostocising, but not losing salvation.
I would much rather encourage someone to “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” than to look for people to fall away.
LeRoy Barnett AMEN BROTHER!!!!
Joe Absher how many ppl go to hell while Christians are amening and high fiving each other on e Sunday?
I used to enjoy the old preachers adage, “if you can’t say ‘Amen’ say “Oh me’ ”
But seems like preachers are starved of praise these days. They have to have their amens.
wow, Joe Absher! You on to something there…
The devil would love to convince people that they can do whatever they want and still go to Heaven. He would love to convince people that they can stop believing and still go to Heaven. You can go from a believer to an unbeliever, and unbelievers will not go to Heaven
there you go Charles Page believes that
Troy Day you’re an expert on what I believe- all along I thought that God was the expert
Charles Page thou art a plain bapticostal
Troy Day I believe in the proper investment of human responsibility with those who have been born again by baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.
Obedience to the preached word is subsequent to the new birth.
Of course. Apostasy is very real. The Bible is full of threats and warnings and pleading. Seems very simple to me.
Do not try it and test the Lord.
No. But if a believer stops abiding in Christ he will be cut off the vine and thrown into the fire.
Curtis Fenison God prunes all believers as He loves them and does it so they will bear more fruit. The fire is redemptive not destructive.
Yes. He isn’t living for God if he living for the devil. The Bible says you can’t serve two masters. Drink bitter water and sweet water at the same time. It hurts me. I pray for them. But you can’t comprise sin.
He who endures to the end will be saved. Salvation is a free gift of God, but if we could put God to the test, wouldn’t Jesus have hit the zipline on top of Mt Everest just to see if the angels would catch him?
Andrew T. Stube Amen Brother, Jesus sacrifice and precious blood was and is enough!
I personably believe the endure to the end is having Faith in Jesus always. Never losing hope in Him and what He did and what He’s doing in and through us. All Glory be to Him and Him alone!
2Thes.2:13 – 2Thes.2:13 (NKJ)
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
If we were predestined for salvation how could you lose it? If you “lost” it……never really had it.
So Mike Partyka what is your take on backsliding ?
Troy Day God is married to the backslider.
Great book addresses by Evangelist Guy Duty, now with the Lord- “If Ye Continue.” Discusses Arminius vs Calvinist views favoring the prior.
YES Great resource Where can we find it?
It look like it can be purchased by Googling it.
Jim Price I am simply asking of the possibility for ppl to backslide and what have you seen during your life time of ministry
At what point is one considered “backslidden?”
at the point when they are not saved anymore
Troy Day thanks, that brings real clarity. ? At what point is one no longer saved?
Roger Lewis right when they backslide?
What constitutes backsliding? At what moment are you backslidden and no longer saved?
I think there’s a difference in backsliding and apostasy. You cannot “lose” your salvation in my opinion, but you can turn your back on your faith and God (apostasy). I am not OSAS, but neither am I insecure in my relationship with Jesus. I do not believe I can sin and not know it because the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. Then it becomes my responsibility to take action. I have known people who have backslidden, left the church, and lived a life outside of the faith, but I’ve never known one who died in that state. Not saying it can’t happen. Just that in my experience I’ve not know anyone that has died in a backslidden state.
Roger Lewis Amen brother
they seem to be just about the same
From some of these responses, it appears that Jesus’s parables about different kinds of soil, fish being thrown back, and mention of the narrow door to salvation isn’t the case.
Who should we believe?
Philip Williams If some men are predestined by God for salvation who or what could possibly change that outcome.
Mike Partyka
God will certainly wipe their names out of his book of life.
Mike Partyka fatalism is pagan religion not Christianity.
Philip Williams if God decrees something to happen it is going to happen or God isn’t God. Acts 2:23….. what if the Jews accepted Jesus and the Romans loved him? Does God toss out the New Testament?
Mike Partyka
God has given his Son to save whosoever believes in him. Living like the Devil isn’t believing in him. God doesn’t toss out the free will that he has given to men. He will certainly toss out those who blame their salvation or lack thereof on him. He will toss them into the hottest Hell for such evil wicked hearts.
Philip Williams I am not here to debate Calvinism VS Arminianism but the whosoever is must receive the Holy Ghost to believe. What constitutes unsealing of the Holy Ghost and the second birth ?
Mike Partyka
Well I’m neither Calvinist nor Arminian.
We can choose to live in the Spirit or rebel against it. Those who have tasted it and turned back cannot be restored for they are crucifying the Son of God again.
Philip Williams Ephesians 2:10
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
Acts 13:48
Ephesians 2:10 is new creation, not old creation.
2 Thes 2:13-14 same.
Acts 13:48 same.
alvinist or carminian?
Jesus doesnt say anything about going to eternal hell; except Pharisees.
RichardAnna Boyce hahah WHAT ? ! ?
“And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.””
Matthew 25:30, 44-46
The most graphic portrayal of hell is found in Revelation 14:9-11. There we read: “And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, ‘If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
John goes on to describe the duration of this punishment in two statements in v. 11. First, the “smoke” of their torment, i.e., the smoke of the fire and sulfur (v. 10) “goes up forever and ever” (see Isa. 34:9-10 for the OT background). It is almost as if there is a smoldering testimony to the consequences of sin and the justice of God’s wrath. The duration of this phenomenon is said to be, literally, “unto the ages of the ages”. This terminology occurs 13x in Revelation: 3x with reference to the duration of praise, glory, and dominion given to God (1:6; 5:13; 7:12); 5x with reference to the length of life of God or Christ (1:18; 4:9,10; 10:6; 15:7); once referring to the length of God’s reign in Christ (11:15); once referring to the length of the saints’ reign (22:5); once referring to the ascension of the smoke of destroyed Babylon (19:3); once referring to the duration of torment of the devil, beast, and false prophet (20:10); and, of course, once here in 14:11. Second, “they have no rest, day or night” (the latter phrase being parallel to “forever and ever”). In Revelation 4:8 the same terminology occurs with regard to the duration of worship on the part of the four living creatures. That from which they have “no rest” is, presumably, the torment caused by the fire and brimstone.
Do texts such as this speak of eternal punishing (with focus on the act of judging) or eternal punishment (with focus on the effect of judgment)? In other words, what is it that is eternal or unending: the act of punishing unbelievers, or the effect of their punishment? Again, is the torment of the lost a conscious experience that never ends? Or is the punishment a form of annihilation in which, after a just season of suffering in perfect proportion to sins committed, the soul ceases to exist? Does the ascending smoke of their torment point to the unending conscious experience of suffering they endure? Or does it signify a lasting, irreversible effect of their punishment in which they are annihilated? Those who argue for the latter view contend that there will be no rest “day or night” from torment while it continues or as long as it lasts. But whether or not it lasts forever or eternally must be determined on other grounds.
#JESUS
Backslider can repent, as in a believer who is following after a heresy or like the prodigal son, but the one who crushes down the Holy Blood of Jesus the Christ as if it were nothing, no.
TRUE but will ALL repent RichardAnna Boyce for example do NOT believe repentance is Biblical or needed for salvation
Troy Day God’s Word says …. if they do repent in the true sense of the word, to He Who is the One Who can save souls in-through-by-with Jesus, then yes, God knows His own, and it is not His will that any soul should perish. Amen and Amen.
Troy Day Jesus Said: “Repent, Believe, and you shall be saved.” And He is the One Who Gave us this daily prayer ….
Backslide yes.
Lose Salvation is not possible. Its eternal.
so backsliders will be saved too?
They are already saved.
Jo Kothenbeutel that does not make sence.
I’d he backslide, comments murder. He is still saved?
Michael Spicer in the first place he is not saved if he murdered somebody. I think.
July Belandres what about King David, didn’t he commit murder?
Bernie Waldron he asked forgiveness, wear sackcloth, rebuked by prophet Nathan, his son with Batsheba died, and many more curses.
No you can never lose your Salvation
so you sin and live like the devil and STILL go to heaven? Philip Williams
Troy Day No sir. Actually a true believer when born again strives not to sin. Their heart is changed they have new affections and new desires. 1 Corinthians 5:17 a new creation in Christ old passes away behold all things new …. Romans 6 how can we who have been born again still live in sin Paul says? …. We cant and the sign we are truly saved is a practice of repentance amd turning away from sin and confession to and agreeing with God about our sin.
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
In the original Greek, metanoia is the term that is most commonly translated as “repentance” in English. This word literally means “change of mind” and helps us understand what repentance really means. Fundamentally, repentance is a change of mind, a switch from an outlook that esteems sin to one that considers it abhorrent. It is important that we remember, however, that Scripture understands a true change of mind to be one that includes more than just a shifting of intellectual categories. To have metanoia, to have true repentance, involves feelings of regret and remorse. Repentance means we are truly sorry for something we have done (not just its consequences) and want to change our behavior. A repentant life is a changed life, not in that perfection is ever attained but in that the fruit of repentance, a change in action and attitudes, becomes discernible in a person’s character (Luke 3:7–9). Scripture repeatedly calls the people of God to repent, and it also knows of outward actions that people display to show their repentance. External formalism is no substitution for inner contrition, but we are wrong if we think it is inappropriate to display our repentance publicly. When we have offended another, for example, it is often right to express our sorrow for our words or deeds to the offended party in order that they would see our repentance and be reconciled to us.
John 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness. It is a continuing change worked by God in us, freeing us from sinful habits and forming in us Christlike affections, dispositions, and virtues. It does not mean that sin is instantly eradicated, but it is also more than a counteraction, in which sin is merely restrained or repressed without being progressively destroyed. Sanctification is a real transformation, not just the appearance of one. The basic meaning of “sanctify” is to set apart to God, for His use. But God works in those whom He claims as His own to conform them “to the image of his Son” (Rom. 8:29). This moral renovation, in which we are increasingly changed from what we once were, flows from the agency of the indwelling Holy Spirit. God calls His children to holiness, and graciously gives what He commands (1 Thess. 4:4; 5:23). Regeneration is birth; sanctification is growth. In regeneration, God implants desires that were not there before: desire for God, for holiness, and for glorifying God’s name in the world; desire to pray and worship; desire to love and bring benefit to others. In sanctification, the Holy Spirit works in you, both to will and to work according to God’s purpose, enabling His people to fulfill their new, godly desires (Phil. 2:12, 13). Sanctification is an ongoing process, dependent on God’s continuing action in the believer, and consisting of the believer’s continuous struggle against sin. God’s method of sanctification is neither activism (self-reliant activity) nor apathy (God-reliant passivity), but human effort dependent on God (2 Cor. 7:1; Phil. 3:10–14; Heb. 12:14). Knowing that without Christ’s enabling we cannot do good works, but also that He is ready to strengthen us for all we have to do (Phil. 4:13), if we abide in Christ, asking for His help constantly, and we receive it. Believers find within themselves contrary urgings. The Spirit sustains their regenerate desires and purposes, but their fallen instincts (the “flesh”) obstruct their path and drag them back. The conflict of these two is sharp. Paul says he is unable to do what is right, and unable to restrain himself from doing what is wrong (Rom. 7:14–25). This conflict and frustration will be with Christians as long as they are in the body. Yet by watching and praying against temptation, and cultivating opposite virtues, they may through the Spirit’s help “put to death” particular bad habits (Rom. 8:13; Col. 3:5). They will experience many particular deliverances and victories in their battle with sin, while not being exposed to temptations that are impossible to resist (1 Cor. 10:13).
Troy Day Calvinist do not think u can live in sin. You dont understand the Calvinist or reformed view thats the problem
Ralph Edwards II so u mean. That you are in Gods hand and he will never let you go?
Michael Spicer that is correct
Ralph Edwards II but he cant deside to jump out of Gods hand?
Michael Spicer a true believer will never decide to do that because John 8:33-36 the Son has set him free
Ralph Edwards II so u believe if one does deside to “jump” he really wasnt saved to begin with?
Michael Spicer that is correct
Michael Spicer yes.
THANK you for approving AND we are OFF to the races Philip Williams YES we can but RichardAnna Boyce dont believe that
and there you have it 😉 Philip Williams
Troy Day the truth hurts dont it Troy?
No
If he backsides for years after being genuinely saved and then one day has a moment where he is seeking once again God that only speaks of two things….God had never abandoned him and gave this person his wish to experience this life without Him to inevitably bring him to reason and conviction to be drawn back to Him to re-dedicate his life back to Christ…..or he was never a real believer in the first place and his professed salvation was a sham and then one day he has an experience that bestows on him in which he realizes that he was never a real Christian. That realization and desire to change that would be God’s power bringing him to true faith and repentance. There’s a difference when it comes to “seeking God”…. Believers seek after God and unbelievers don’t seek after Him, but only He knows who we each person’s heart….
The “once-saved-always-saved” doctrine is not biblical.
Paul wrote in the New Testament that it was possible, even though he had this spirit-filled saved relationship, to be cast away:
“Christian, know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air; But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway” (1 Corinthians 9:24-27).
Paul also writes, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering.” Once a person is saved, why would they need to hold fast? He goes on to add, “Let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works, for if we sin willfully after we have received a knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sins but a certain fearful looking forward to of judgment”( Hebrews 10:23, 24).
No, this is not a “condition;” it is a call to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith.
Many testify to sitting in the pews for years before discovering that had not yet been born again.
God redeems for a purpose (Eph. 2:8-10). Our assurance of salvation comes from the ongoing evidence in our lives of life transformation.
Salvation is God’s sovereign work, man is not in control.
God chose the redeemeed in eternity past, He draws them, redeems them, santifies them, keeps them and glorifies them.
The idea of losing salvation is in direct conflict with the doctrine of salvation.
Michael Spicer
Hebrews 10:23-24 supports no OSAS. Sin willfully here is specifically the sin of returning to their vomit, so to speak; that is why it speaks of “sacrifice”. If they come to Christ and rejoice in the gift of Salvation and then later due to some event(s) come to a change of mind again against Jesus only by grace alone through trust, there remains no other sacrifice to come that remove a sin. Jesus was it, the only sacrifice acceptable to God for sin removal.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 is not a OSAS text as it isn’t speaking to Salvation of the soul but Rewards for service. That is why we see the saved receive crowns. This occurs at the Bema Seat where the saint is “judged” not with regard to sin but regarding the useful or useless he or she did while in the body.
Duane L Burgess “It is not a condition it is a call to examine ourselves to see of we are in the faith”.
If it is not a condition then it cannot be anything by which to examine ourselves.
If our obedience is irrelevant then it is not a test.
Duane L Burgess
No! Our assurance of Salvation come SOLELY from the fact that we trust and continue to trust with all confidens that God meant what He said, the blood of Christ alone gives us standing in Heaven. We believe he is who he said he is and therefore we shall not die in our sin.
You’ve made it by “good works” of evidence. You may not have meant to but you have.
Michael Spicer
1Corinthians 3v15 says his works will be lost but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED
Salvation has nothing to do with you:
Ephesians 2: 8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
And when you accept Christ you become a new creature, you can’t go back and become an old creature:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
II Corinthians 5:17
Stop being sin conscious and start being righteousness conscious. Blessings
Our faith must be in Jesus finished work alone.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Josie Tiscareno amen!
No. Noting can separate the redeemed from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Duane L Burgess
You can separate yourself from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Tracy Pavlik you dispute the word of God. You offer no evidence for your statement.
Rick Davis
Demas
Rick Davis sir, what do you make of the passage in Hebrews 6:4-6? How do you read that?
Robert Jarvis it is saying that if it were possible for a Christian to be lost again, then it would be just as impossible for them to be saved again. If you want to exclude eternal security, then you must also exclude the possibility of ever being saved again if you walk away. It is a picture of one walking away from Christ because he was never a Christian to begin with.
Robert Jarvis now will you please tell me what it means to be born again and how being born is something you can change.
Rick Davis how can one ” fall away” if they were never saved? To be born again, or more correct ly ” born from above”, means God Himself dwells in you, thus giving you life again because when we sin we die.It is a relationship with God Himself, a relationship that can end if we turn or fall away. I’m sure you’re going to tell me of all the wonderful things God has done for, will do for us, but only IF we CONTINUE to believe or follow Him. That is why there are passages in the Bible like Hebrews 6 that state one can lose eternal life
Robert Jarvis have you sinned since yesterday or today? Have you died? Do you repeatedly go through the process of dying and being made alive again?
Rick Davis r u saying we DONT die when we sin? Can you explain that to me? Or, are you saying because our salvation is unconditional, we can sin however much we want? Again I ask you how can something ” fall away” who was never saved?
Robert Jarvis you know very well let’s have a shin is only for those that turn from their sins. But a child of God cannot continue sinning without punishment from God himself. Otherwise, you are perpetually and continually being lost again and Born Again everyday and multiple times per day. Does that really make sense?
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9, ESV)
Robert Jarvis didn’t Paul teach that the Commandments are no longer an issue pertaining to our Salvation and that it is about a relationship? If a Christian sins, God will deal with him as a son or a daughter. Your understanding of salvation says that God will deal with us as a stranger and an outcast that is not family at all.
Rick Davis you do agree that when we first sin, we die, right? Thus the need to be born again, right? So why do you think this changes after we become Christian? SIN STILL KILLS. Now does that mean our relationship is over? No, it is damaged, because of sin there is separation, but I don’t think it is over( unless something drastic happens, li ke suicde for blasphemy against God can’t help but get the sense from you ,sgainblasphemingpirit, or suicide)
Sorry I messed up the last text. Meant to finish with saying I can’t help but get the sense from you that it is okay to sin. Do you think that since Jesus paid for all our sins, that we are already forgiven?
Robert Jarvis we do not die after we sin if we are a Christian because the seed of God is literally within us and God’s holy spirit is upon us. Surely you recognize the difference.
Jesus literally abides within and he has given us eternal life. Do you think he takes it away and that the Holy Spirit leaves if we sin? You know better.
Robert Jarvis I have already explained to you what God does if a Christian sins. He will punish us and sternly correct us if necessary.
Robert Jarvis if the Commandments are no longer the issue and we are not bound by them because we have been forgiven, then the issue is about relationship and the Bible teaches we will be judged based on how well we have done as a Christian. I really don’t know where in this you see that sin is excused.
by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:14, ESV)
Rick Davis after reading Romans 7, especially the latter part, I think that we are not that far apart on how sin impacts us.I would like to get back to Hebrews 6 and discuss more about the term ” fall away”, and the possibility of a believer losing eternal life
Robert Jarvis okay. The writer of Hebrews plainly said that if one fell away, it would be impossible to renew them again, so this puts an end to whether or not a person can lose their salvation and then be saved again. It plainly says they can’t be saved again if they fall away.
Rick Davis so they CAN fall away, meaning to lose eternal life?
You had previously said this means they were never saved to begin with, right? And I asked you how an unsaved person can fall away, remember?
Robert Jarvis I’m simply saying that the writer of Hebrews is saying the it would be impossible to restore them again to repentance. In other words, those that have been acquainted with the gospel and salvation and have said no to it, cannot be saved. The fact that they would walk away and renounce Christianity is evidence that they were never saved to begin with. This is what John tells us and that’s how I know I’m right.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19, ESV)
Rick Davis you are missing reading the passage, but I don’t have my Bible right now, so I’ll respond later this evening, ok?
Robert Jarvis there is no disputing what John said. If someone walks away from the faith, they were never a Christian to begin with. If you have an alternate explanation for that, I would like to see it.
Rick Davis again I think you are misreading the passage in 1 John- can you give exactly Ch a and verse? I’ll look it up when I get home
Rick Davis let’s look at the passage in Hebrew s 6:4-6. ” For it is I’m possible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and we’re MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, and have tasted the good WORD OF GOD ,and the powers of the world to come
Can an unsaved person later believed and gain salvation? The answer and reason will be the same to your question.
Henry Teh if a person can lose their salvation, then please explain the teaching of adoption and sonship. Nothing you can do will make you a son of anyone except the one that you were born to. There is no changing that. If we are born again by the spirit of God, you are eternally a child of God and there’s nothing you can do to change that. God will punish the disobedient to the point of even taking them out of this world, but you cannot change who you are.
Rick Davis OK …. go ahead put a spiritual halo around you.
Henry Teh can we continue speaking as adults?
Rick Davis No. I only give short comments on fb. I don’t go into conversation. It doesn’t benefit me at all. Go discuss with your pastor. ?
No such thing as temporary eternal life
are you?
… False Doctrine that makes God into a Probation Officer and Jesus a Potential Savior.
Well just remember this we have to be careful not to love our sin unto death that’s what Jesus was letting us know how far does your love for Sin go and how far does your love for God go it’s very important that we love God with all our heart soul mind and strength and we don’t deceive ourselves by saying well now that I’m in Grace now that I’m in Mercy I can just sin away and I’ll be forgiven you know what I think that if you are a true believer in God he knows it and if you are a true believer in God you’re not going to pursue sin unto death that’s what I believe I know that we can commit sins that are just horrible before the Lord but if your heart truly is the Lord’s you’re not going to pursue that unto death
Christ makes constant comparisons to himself as a shepherd. Those who hear him are his sheep. Those do not hear him do not hear him because they are not his sheep. Not that they are not his sheep because they do not hear him, but they do not hear him “because they are not his sheep”. He is our shepherd, and he is a good shepherd. He will go out and gather his sheep even if they are part of other flocks. Does a good shepherd let his sheep just wander away? He is the shepherd who leaves the 99 to return the 1.
Josie Tiscareno
Not necessarily.
Metanoia is a change of mind. In the case of Salvation, it’s a change of mind about our works being sifficient to save (do do this, don’t do that) and realizing only Christ’s work saves us.
You cannot get saved by works but you can keep your salvation by works.
Rick Martin Somebody is going to misunderstand you.
yes, although baclsliders can come back to Jesus.
When we back-slide , we loose the joy of our salvation .
Sin also creates guilt which if not taken care of (confession) causes doubts and alienation.
Rick Martin this!!!
Easy Answer No. once saved always saved. By grace alone through faith alone.
Taua Finau Vala exactly! Salvation is belief in JESUS CHRIST and his work on the cross. He came, he went, came back. And is coming back again. It has NOTHING to do with quality of your faith but that you HAVE faith. I always get perplexed by people answering this question with diff understandings on this. What did the man the died next to Jesus do to be save ? What about his actions? His heart? His works? He had NONE but belief in CHrist.
Matt Ashley Magaña I would think any serious bible reader would come to the same conclusion. The other world religions are works based salvation, so I can understand how someone totally new (a babe) in the faith will be struggling with this idea at first but not longtime followers of Christ.
Respectfully disagree based on the fact that Peter denied Jesus 3 times AFTER he confessed that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God.
can you further elaborate.
NOPE
Once REGENERATED always REGENERATED
Once imputed with the Righteousness of JESUS CHRIST alone always imputed with the Righteousness of Jesus Christ alone
Then what about Peter who denied Christ 3 times AFTER he professed he’d go to his death before denying Christ AND after Peter made the bold profession of faith that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God??
Of course a believer can backslide and lose their salvation. The bible clearly teaches that fact. Verses like 1 Cor 10:12; “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” And Galatians 5:4; “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” And Hebrews 6:4-6; “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
Jim Carlsen How does a Regenerated man become Unregenerated ?
Joe A Smith By turning back to the world, after having turned to God. Galatians 5:4 that it happens when someone looks to the old law for justification. Even though one has been regenerated, he is then severed from Christ, going back to what he was entangled with before.
Jim Carlsen so your argument is greater is he who is in the World than He that is in You .
Joe A Smith Walking away from God.
Joe A Smith Free will isn’t negated at all. You CAN choose to reject a gift after you’ve accepted it. What about the passage that talks about tares in the soil that actually start to grow, but don’t take root and are soon blown away?? (Don’t remember where that is). Matthew 13:20, 21.
William Clark so can you show the steps on how you can lose your Regeneration after being Regenerated?
Joe A Smith Did i say anything of the sort? Of course I didn’t. That is not even remotely related to what I said. Please stay on track here.
Jim Carlsen well a BELIEVER is REGENERATED in CHRIST so in order to stop being a BELIEVER he would have to stop being REGENERATED
Joe A Smith That would be correct. The bible calls it falling from grace, and likens it to the dog returning to his own vomit, and the sow returning to the mire, and a person going back into the world.
Jim Carlsen So how does a man WHO has been REGENERATED go to being UNREGENERATED ?
Jim Carlsen How does the MAN who has been IMPUTED with the RIGHTEOUSNESS of JESUS CHRIST alone stop BEING IMPUTED with the RIGHTEOUSNESS of JESUS CHRIST alone?
Joe A Smith You lose your “regenerated” state of being, by failling to “take up your cross daily, and following Christ”. You do it by refusing to obey God’s commands any longer. You do it by putting the world first, instead of continuing to put the kingdom first. You do it by neglecting to repent of your sins, and to thus be cleansed by the blood of Christ. You do it by trying to be justified by some other means besides Christ. You do it through a loss of your faith and of your obedience.
Joe A Smith No one is “imputed with the righteousness of Christ” that is a misunderstanding of how we are saved. It’s not Christ’s righteousness that is imputed to us as righteousness, but rather, it is our own faith and obedience, which is imputed to us as if it were righteousness.
Jim Carlsen not what scripture teaches can you provide the verses that state Christs righteousness is not imputed to His Elect Sheep?
Jim Carlsen man is in a state of unrighteousness until Regeneration.
Only by Regeneration can man be saved .
Joe A Smith No, of course no one can provide a verse that says Christs righteousness is NOT imputed to us. The point is that the bible never says that it is! You see the bible does say that faith our faith is imputed as righteousness, and it also says that our obedience is imputed as righteousness. However the bible does NOT say that Christs own righteousness is imputed to us. In James 2:21-24, the bible says that the obedience of Abraham was imputed to him as righteousness, and then In Romans 4:3, the bible says that Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him as righteousness. And way back in Genesis 15:6, the bible says that Abram believed God, and it was counted as righteousness. It is always OUR faith, and OUR obedience that is imputed to us as if it were righteousness. Never is someone else’s righteousness imputed to us, not even the righteousness of Christ.
Jim Carlsen 1 Cor 1:30? 2 Cor 5:21? Rom 5:17? Rom 4:5? Phil 3:9? Come back if you want with queries. God bless you. And your contact
Joe A Smith What does “your cobtact” mean? Lets take one verse at a time. 1 Cor 1:30 does not say that Christs’s righteousness is imputed to us. It says that. he has become for us, righteousness, holiness and redemption. That means that the reason that we have holiness and redemption and righteousness, us because we are forgiven in Christ. Not a word is said about imputing anything.
Jim Carlsen Romans 5 :19
Rom 8:10
Jim Carlsen Legalism.
Joe A Smith Have you left 1 Cor 1:30? Ok, Romans 5:19.. “..through the obedience of the one, the many shall be made righteous.” Again, nothing is said about Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us. What that verse is saying is actually saying, is that because of Christ’s obedience, he became the “author” or the “source” of salvation for us . That is what the bible says in Hebrews 5:8-9. Thus by becoming the source of salvation, “the many shall be made righteous” And the way that “the many shall be made righteous, is through the obedience of “the many”. You see, what actually is imputed to us as righteousness, is our obedience to the words of God. Just like Christ’s obedience made Him “compete” as Hebrews 5:9 tells us, so also our obedience will be “imputed to us” as if we actually were righteous!
When a person turns from God to pursue their own desire. We are being rebellion on our own flesh, be careful who you hang out with. Read your Bible ? everyday in the morning and before bedtime and pray ? let the Holy Spirit live in you, immediately pray about the situation your facing. God is there to help us His Always there ✝️
yes James 5:19-20
No they cannot
Did the believer’s backsliding take God by surprise? If so, then yes, you can lose your salvation by backsliding. If no, then God knew the believer would backslide, and therefore never gave them salvation to lose. The Holy Spirit seals our salvation. No one can take us from His hand, not even ourselves. No, a true believer can never lose salvation.
so are you saying some were created just to go to hell and were given NO second chance ?
Troy Day I have no idea how you interpreted my words like that, but no, I am not. I believe God wants all men to be saved, wants no one to perish, and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Thus, salvation is available to all men. However, not all men accept it, and God knows when a person truly has accepted it. You can’t take God by surprise. You can’t trick Him. He knows when salvation has genuinely been accepted, and when it has, He preserves it. When it hasn’t, He just doesn’t give it. A false convert is no more saved than a heretic.
Yes. The book of Revelation says that to the churches.
yes indeed it does
https://rodsonscreativityhouse.com/
I slip back every day and he always pulls me back in his direction again.
yes you do – brew would do that to you
Let’s remain in our Lord as commanded so His promise to remain in us will stand. In this we will never have to find out whether losing salvation is possible. Sound good?
Peter denied Jesus three times, three times in the Bible symbolizes verification and completeness. He should of been by many verses of the Bible permanently wrote off. However when Jesus told Mary to go get the disciples and Peter, that proves that nothing you can do can get you out of the hand of God. Jesus said in John 10 that the looses no one that the father gives Him and no one can snatch them away from Him.
1 word.
Dispensationalism
Not a denomination but UNDERSTANDING of scripture)
We live in the grace period. Our salvation depends on Christ alone. Once saved always saved. Scripture proves that once broken down and not every single bible verse is applied to you. (All is valuable and useful in some area, but what wasn’t said to you or for you, still isn’t for you.) we can’t jumble all of scripture and apply all to us the gentiles living in this time period of scripture.
has NOTHING to do with the Biblical post
Can a believer backslide and be a happy, content, satisfied believer?
Tommy S. Hancock they won’t be a happy content, satisfied believer, but that doesn’t mean they’ve lost their salvation.
Greg Will
If you’re not a hapoy, content, satisified believer, why be a believer?
Tommy S. Hancock that’s no reason to say u can lose your salvation. Is a married person always happy, content and satisfied in their marriage? Of course not. Then why be married? Simon Peter,,,rekected the Lord,,,and yet God restored Peter back to fellowship and he became one of the most fantastic disciples and Witnesses and spreader of the Gospel across the world. Wrote portions of scripture and yet he was very miserable for a while. That doesn’t mean he lost his salvation.
Yes
indeed
Troy Day crazy peeps can figure something like that out
Epistle of John.
what about it?
Troy Day He address the same thing.
Can backslide, but not lose their salvation. Look at King David after his sin of adultery and murder, he did not lose his salvation, in Psalm 51:12 he said restore unto me the JOY of my salvation, not restore my salvation. For those that say you can lose our Salvation, where is the point where you sin that you will lose your salvation and where is the point you can sin to and you don’t lose your salvation? Because we all sin, (there are those that say they don’t sin) 1st John 1:8 says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Backslide yes, lose salvation no
Look ar 1Cor 5 verse 1 and see that this believer did not lose his salvation . If the believer could lose his salvation then Hebrews 12 is not needed . And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. I will establish his line forever, his throne as long as the heavens endure. “If his sons forsake my law and do not follow my statutes, I will punish their sin with the rod, their iniquity with flogging; but I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered.
Psalms 89:27, 29-30, They will be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.
Jeremiah 32:39-40.
If backsliding can lead to loss of salvation, how could anyone attain assurance?
“Although that power of God strengthening and preserving *true* believers in grace is more than a match for the flesh, yet those converted are not always so activated and motivated by God that in certain specific actions they cannot depart from the leading of grace, be led astray by the desires of the flesh, and give into them. For this reason they must constantly watch and pray that they may not be led into temptations. When they fail to do this, not only CAN they be carried away by the flesh, the world, and Satan into sins, even serious and outrageous ones, but also by God’s just permission they sometimes ARE so carried away — witness the sad cases, described in Scripture, of David, Peter, and other saints falling into sins.
By such monstrous sins, however, they greatly offend God, deserve the sentence of death, grieve the Holy Spirit, suspend the exercise of faith, severely wound the conscience, and sometimes lose the awareness of grace for a time — until, after they have returned to the way by genuine repentance, God’s fatherly face again shines upon them.
-the Cannons of Dort, point 5 articles 4 and 5
Adam Daniel Broughton – I think “never saved to begin with” is much less reassuring.
Keith Morris either we can lose our salvation and there is *no* assurance for anyone (beyond delusional assurance), or we can’t lose our salvation and there *is* assurance for believers. I don’t think your response addresses my question.
Assurance for some (true believers) is better than assurance for none.
Keith Morris you can’t have “less” assurance than *no* assurance. Unless you’re talking about negative assurance…
Adam Daniel Broughton – that’s the cliche false dichotomy that I’m familiar with. The problem is that your dichotomy is based on a false premise that those who believe you can lose your salvation adhere to a works based salvation where one is in constant fear of which sin will send them to hell. If our salvation is based on faith then our assurance cannot be based our sin/works at all. As such, the presence of faith (and the fruit there of) is all the assurance we need. That’s how we “abide.”
Keith Morris but faith is not of us, but a gift from God, correct? Is that gift revocable?
Show me how this statement is incorrect – if you *can* lose your salvation, you *cannot* have assurance that you won’t lose your salvation.
Disregard my first question, it’s not helpful. Would you dispute the statement I made above?
Adam Daniel Broughton – I’m aware of the terminology for this doctrinal apology. That’s why I say “willingly forfeit.” People return “gifts” all the time. Assurance is in the fact that you can choose to walk away and you will do so knowingly.
Keith Morris that’s the answer I anticipated, sorry for having asked. I believe it’s problematic, but let’s not worry about that. What about the statement I made is incorrect?
Adam Daniel Broughton which statement?
Keith Morris if you *can* lose your salvation, you *cannot* have assurance that you will not lose your salvation.
Because it is not of him who runs or him who wills
Keith Morris you might be sure that you are in faith and are abiding, but if you can’t be sure that you won’t lose your salvation, I wouldn’t call that assurance.
Maybe you would say “it can happen, but I won’t let it happen, I will hold on to this gift.” In that case it is of you who wills.*
Adam Daniel Broughton – I don’t use the word “lose” because it turns the theology into semantics and analogies. “Willingly forfeit” is more semantically correct. Yes, we can be saved but we must abide. It’s not a works based salvation because we stand justified but we must maintain our “gift” and that is the fruit of the Spirit and the faith that isn’t “dead.”
Keith Morris so you will to maintain your gift of salvation?
Keith Morris is that willing of yourself, or of God? “For it is God that works in you both to will and to do…”
I assume you don’t believe it’s meritorious.
Nevertheless it is something you must do, so that if God were to ask “why should you be saved?” You might answer “because I kept the faith.”
Adam Daniel Broughton – that is the Holy Spirit (inside us) working with us to do the will of the Father. That cooperation is what causes us to abide. When we ignore the Holy Spirit consistently, we start down a road that we eventually must ask ourselves if we are still in the faith. Regardless, it isn’t a simple misstep or single act of ignorance.
Keith Morris so it is possible for you to willingly forfeit the gift of God. I think it’s implied that you must will to keep it in order to be saved. I’m having a hard time seeing how that is not meritorious.
Keith Morris By way of analogy it’s like you get air lifted out of the ocean you would have drowned in, but you are left outside of the helicopter to hang on tight until you reach the land…if you let go, that’s on you. If you hold on, you’re saved.
Adam Daniel Broughton – I’m already justified – I already have the gift. I didn’t earn it, I’m just responsible for what I do with it.
Adam Daniel Broughton — I don’t do analogies on this stuff because they result in poorly framed arguments rather than what they need to be which is to reframe an argument for understanding.
Keith Morris I think the analogy is apt, but feel free to respond not to the analogy but instead to the point I’m making with it. I don’t believe salvation is synergistic, but I do believe sanctification is.
Adam Daniel Broughton – that’s often the semantic issue that I run into – positional salvation versus progressive salvation. I am both saved and being saved. Sanctification is progressive salvation that I am working out each day while remaining positionally justified before God.
For our “once, always” friends, I prefer “willingly forfeit” salvation. There have been very public renouncements of Christian leaders who proclaim they no longer believe. In these instances, I don’t think you can suggest otherwise. Of course they didn’t wake up one day and decide to do that. It was a gradual and not a accidental decay of their proximity to the Divine.
Keith Roman’s chapter one, reprobate mind, God LET’S us sear our conscious with a hot iron and get calloused to the tugging of the holy spirit. Does that mean we aren’t saved? Absolutely not.
John Timothy Hett Jr.
what do you make of the parable or the unforgiving servant?
He stood before the king. Was forgiven everything. He walked away a saved man.
But then he forfeited that eternal freedom and was cast away forever until he paid a debt he never could.
That parable is a about a man who knew salvation and threw it away.
Can’t see it any other way.
Jesus said these parables are the way the kingdom works. That why he taught them.
John Timothy Hett Jr. – how do you deal with apostasy? I’m not suggesting there is always a clear line but when those who were outwardly saved decide to outwardly reject, how should we view that?
Keith Morris Paul says The Apostasy comes first then Antichrist is revealed at AOD. Apostasy isn’t a backsliden state…. Its a COMPLETE rejection of Christ Of The Bible…. From a Christian View to a Islam View for example…..Taking The Mark of the Beast is a complete rejection of The Biblical Christ!
Also I think at some point there will be a clear line between True Born-Again Christians (True Believers) and “Religious Christians” (Ones who turn away from the faith) in the endtimes…. We are starting to see Apostasy now like with HillSong etc.. But Paul says a GREAT FALLEN AWAY OR APOSTASY WILL HAPPEN!
Michael Joseph Terran – we are not in the same line of thinking if you are calling Hillsong apostate. What happens when a true born-again Christian publicly rejects faith?
Keith Morris The guy from Hillsong is a Apostasy. https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5d605421e4b02cc97c8d8724
To answer your question…..
1 John 2:19 Amplified Bible (AMP)
19 They went out from us [seeming at first to be Christians], but they were not really of us [because they were not truly born again and spiritually transformed]; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out [teaching false doctrine], so that it would be clearly shown that none of them are of us.
Michael Joseph Terran – I thought you were saying Hillsong was apostate.
That is really my point, what do you do with those that are among the ranks and leave? Some say they were never saved to begin with but they also say that you cannot have both assurance AND hold to willful forfeiture of salvation. However, I would contend that you cannot have assurance if you cannot know who is truly saved.
Keith Morris I won’t listen to there songs…and churches shouldn’t play their songs anymore they are a bad witness now. Because the guy who writes them is a apostate now.
Galatians 5:9 Amplified Bible (AMP)
9 A little [a]leaven [a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers] leavens the whole batch [it perverts the concept of faith and misleads the church].
Michael Joseph Terran – sounds like legalism to me which makes your quoting of Galatians ironic.
They went out from us…. BUT never of us…… Jesus used the seeds growing in different conditions. Either they are a believer in Christ or Not.
Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits.
We have to be careful when Christians try to play Judge with Salvation… Because God is The Ultimate Judge. However we can liken people to trees….. Is there good fruit on their tree, what are they producing or is it rotten and we need to stay away from that tree (Person) because Jesus is the one who will cut it down if He has too.
I just have to make sure that my roots are firmly planted by Jesus in Living Water. ?
Keith Morris Its not Legalism its just looking out for others so they don’t stumble or that attitude rubs off on others to mislead them. In the end people and churches can do what they want.
Paul also says In Romans all things are permissible but not everything is beneficial.
Michael Joseph Terran – yeah, Jesus had Thomas AND Judas in his ministry – don’t think we should stop using his stuff ?
I’ve spent a lot of time watching and listening to Christians that spend more energy avoiding deception than trusting God. If your faith can’t weather doubt, questions, and storms (especially of others) then Hillsong isn’t your problem.
Keith Morris Thomas was a doubter but still a believer and Jesus was able to use his (Our) weaknesses to deliver a powerful message.
Judas story is recorded as a record of his fall and how he became corrupt.
The thing with Hillsong and that guy, that was my personal opinion on that matter. Thats all. Thats my understanding of the situation but someone may do differently and they have thay right to do so.
Michael Joseph Terran – certainly – please note that “your” was not intended to be a personal reference.
Our works do not contribute to our salvation. One only commits apostasy when they willingly fall away from the faith.
I always say that someone who was once “saved” who turns away from Christ was never really saved to begin with. True salvation causes a change in your heart and if you are truly saved you cannot ever turn away without feeling extreme torment in your heart. I know this firsthand.
Josie Tiscareno here’s one right back.
Nikki Wolford Lefort ?
Nikki have you ever read or studiede through Roman’s chapter one and what it means to have a reprobate mind? How are we good enough judges to say whether or not someone’s prayer for salvation was genuine or not? It’s not our job and even if they’re actions say otherwise, we can’t judge or discern their hearts and thoughts, only God can. we all grow at different speeds and produce different fruits in our own seasons. Even if someone steps away from the church building or posts a certain thing in Facebook, that’s fickle compared to the what could be taking place on the inside. Saying that they were never saved to begin with makes it seem like something you have to earn with your steps to follow which is unbilical and teeders on works=salvation.
John Timothy Hett Jr. Yes. I have. I’m not judging anyone’s salvation. Ever. As I’m commanded not to. I’m not even saying that a saved person cannot have periods of distance from Christ. But some people get caught up in the emotions of “salvation” without understanding what it truly means. I do not believe a person who has truthfully repented and accepted Christ can ever lose that salvation. I am speaking of people who and then in time turn away and do so without any convictions otherwise. I do not believe that if your repentance and acceptance was genuine you can ever do that. I was saved when I was young but lived many years in my young adult life away from Him. I was miserable. Even when I was “happy” something was always missing. I felt constant conviction. For years and years. I believe I was truly saved when I was a child which is why living a life I knew was not pleasing to Him (though not necessarily bad by the world’s standards) caused me such grief.
Ezekiel 18
If you could lose your salvation, you would.
Yes if he goes to the extent of denying Christ or the Holy Spirit.
I said last night during a different thread- I am new here and don’t want to offend…..Therefore… I wouldn’t touch that question with ten foot tulip…..Or perhaps I should say….a ten foot tuliP……?
TULIP is NOT the BIBLE
Yeah- that was kind of my point…..I suppose I could say that you are right….That the flower known the tulip does not appear in scripture…..But the Total Depravity of mankind does….As does God’s unconditional election of His Saints, the limits of the Atonement, the Irresistibility of God’s Grace and the Perseverance of those previously mentioned Saints…All five are mentioned, quite extensively..in fact- in fact- they are kind of the point of the story…. I could say that…..But like I said- I’m new here….Don’t want to offend….. Maybe after I’ve been here a few weeks- I will perk up……
Keith Morris that’s an interesting view. Let me put some thought into it and we’ll pick it up later. Thanks!
Sure thing
Yes
Salvation can’t be lost because its not your work, its the Holy Trinity’s work so it cant fail.
so HOW are SO many church folk lost to hell every day then ?
Troy Day Simple, they are not truly converted.
Yes…the great following away
yap
Salvation can’t be taken away, but it can be given up.
However you want to phrase it, salvation can indeed be lost, even after it had been gained.
Jim Carlsen I agree. Typically, the crowd that believes in “once saved always saved” tends to criticize their opponents as believing that the Enemy can overpower God and wrest our salvation away from Him. This is of course not true. Opponents of “once saved always saved” actually believe that God is totally faithful and all-powerful in His part of the equation, but that human beings who are able to put their faith in Christ are also able to take that faith back.
Abraham Sherman That is exactly right again Abraham. Thank you. It’s seems so easy for words to be misconstrued. It’s like how people read the words of 1 Cor 15:22 which says; “For as in Adam, all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive” and they conclude that we area all born in sin. But that verse say nothing about being born is sin. All it says is just like Adam died because he sinned, so shall all people die because they sin. But people misconstrue those words, and they think it sys something that it doesn’t .
Jim Carlsen That is correct. Our every choice is free and meaningful – a paradigm which God ordained, and thus which involves no overriding of His will. If God were exhaustively sovereign over every detail of creation, evil could never occur. But He has chosen to allow the beings made in His image to make real decisions of eternal consequence, and thus free decisions to commit evil are allowed.
The choice to become guilty of one’s first sin, or to put faith in Christ, are in no way exempted from the free accountability that Scripture reminds us of repeatedly. Biblically, sin and death are like a contagion that absolutely everyone is destined to contract. Eventually, every person sins. God has made the Way for us to be redeemed from the effects of sin, but we have to choose that Way, and then choose to remain in it.
Abraham Sherman What is your religious affiliation Abraham? (if you don’t mind saying)
Jim Carlsen Mainly self-study in the Bible, but the most accurate label for me would be “non-denominational evangelical Protestant”. You?
Abraham Sherman I’m simply a Christian who follows the bible, but I worship with a congregation that identifies as a “church of Christ”.
SUCH humanistic logic makes absolutely NO theological sense It is SIMPLY NOT the BIBLE
Troy Day We can have a discussion about what is and is not in the Bible, if you like.
What exactly are you saying is humanistic? Where does it contradict the Bible?
If you make grand claims and dismissals and don’t back them up, you should be regarded as saying nothing.
A genuine believer never lose his salvation.
There are number of reference in the bible.
Eg.John 10:29,Romans 8th chapter and many more references are there.
Jesus says in John 10:29 that no one can “snatch them out of My hand” that of course means that no one can “steal a believer away against his own will. But it says nothing regarding whether or not the believer can leave Christ of his own free will. And neither does Romans chapter 8 say anything about a believer being unable to turn away from Christ, and from faith. If you believe that there is a specific verse in Romans that says we cannot fall away, please specify which verse that is.
Jim Carlsen first thing we don’t have freewill to choose or to leave Him, Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Here all the verbs are in pastence from election to glorification that means it is eternal security from 1st to last nothing can separate us from God.
When a sinner repents there’s great joy in the heaven, if we lose our salvation why there’s a joy unnecessarily is they are unknowingly rejoicing? Think it brother.
Alexc Alexander There is rejoicing when one repents, and it only stands to reason that there is sorrow when one falls away. But the first thing that you stated is simply not true. Everyone always has freewill to choose whether to believe and to obey, or to not believe and to not obey. It’s always been man’s choice. God has never forced His will on anyone. Do you think that Adam and Eve were forced by God to disobey Him? You misunderstand the meaning of “predestined”. Those who were “predestined” were those who would choose to obey the will of God. Individual people were not “predestined” for anything against their will. Those who have been “predestined” are simply those who make the choice to obey God. It’s as simple as that.
Jim Carlsen expect Adam and eve no other person has the freewill, after Adam’s sin we are all born spiritually dead people, we don’t have freewill to choose God, Faith and His grace is gift from Him, is there any civilized person takes back his gift, then how can the creator can take back His own gift from His children.
Alexc Alexander Absolutely false! No one is born in sin, just because Adam sinned! Where do you think the bible says such a thing?
Jim Carlsen 1Co 15:22 ISV For as in Adam all die, so also in the Messiah will all be made alive.
Alexc Alexander That doesn’t say that anyone is born in sin. All it says is just like Adam died from sin, so shall everyone else die from sin. It doesn’t say a thing about being born in sin. Romans 5:12 says specifically that the reason that all die, is because all have sinned. Not because of anything that Adam did. We need to stick with what the bible actually says, not what it doesn’t say.
Jim Carlsen study commentary on this verse then you come to know.
Alexc Alexander Study commentary on which verse? 1 Cor 15:22, or romans 5:12? I have the bible to teach me the truth. I surely don’t need the opinion of a man and his commentary.
Jim Carlsen it is God allowed the to teacher, preacher, to help us. Above all bible also teaches that born as a sinner read 51st psalm.
Alexc Alexander You are probably referring specifically to Psalm 51, verse 5 which says; “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in iniquity did my mother conceive me.” But that verse is talking about David’s MOTHER being in sin, not David being in sin. Listen again; “,, in iniquity did MY MOTHER conceive me.” His mother was in iniquity, not David.
SUCH humanistic logic makes absolutely NO theological sense It is SIMPLY NOT the BIBLE
Luke 8:11-15 – The Four Soils. Can We Lose Our Salvation?
Legalists believe only the 4th soil Christians, who are producing fruit, will be eternally saved, because they believe justification and sanctification are always united and first 3 soil people are not saved.
Calvinist believe never born again in first place.
AOG Arminian believe they have lost salvation.
Free Grace believe they’re 3 groups – same as 1 Cor 2:14 natural, 3:3 carnal and 2:14 spiritual.
8:12 non-believers, those by the road, where Satan took Gospel away so they can’t believe, 8:13-14 regenerated, germinated and growing with joy (chara saved) and the correct translation (NASB) is ‘no FIRM root’, not ‘no root’ but became carnal Christians, who fell from being firmly rooted in intimacy and fellowship with Christ in the rocky and thorny soils; but never fell away from relationship as once a son always a son .
8:15 and mature fruit-bearing Christians (good soil).
In Matt chapters 1-12, Jesus presents Himself to Israel as her Messiah.
In Matt 12 an official delegation is sent by the religious leader to inspect His claims.
Their conclusion is that Jesus is a demon from hell! (Matt 12:24).
If Jesus truly is the Messiah, how do we explain this rejection by His own people?
The parable of the Soils explains the various responses to the gospel depend on the heart condition of the listener.
Reformed view defines apostasy as falling away from a profession of faith, not true faith.
But how can there be growth and germination if there is no regeneration, new life?
Luke 8:13 The rocky soil Christian germinated and grew and ‘received the word with joy’.
Joy (gr chara) is not superficial excitement but joy of Father finding lost sheep (Luke 15:5ff);
Joy of true Christians because their names are written in heaven (Luke 10:20);
Joy of the disciples after the ascension (Luke 24:52).
‘Receive the word’ is a salvation experience Acts 8:14; 11:1; 11:15-18; 17:11.
Luke 8:12 ‘believe’ is ‘saving faith’, so verse 13 ‘believe’ must mean saving faith too.
Luke 8:13 NASB ‘Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; [a]they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.’
‘They have no firm root’, not deep enough to sustain a life of perseverance.
This is the point of the parable in Luke 8:15. Those represented by the second soil believe, are saved, evidenced by germination and growth, and then fall away due to testing.
The issue in the parable is fruit bearing (Luke 8:8) and progression to maturity (8:14).
There is not a word about heaven or hell in the parable.
Falling away from this progression to maturity and fruit bearing, means the believer has become a dead and carnal Christian losing rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ.
Falling away is not the same as losing one’s salvation as some Pentecostals like AG believe.
Instead it means to fall from being ‘rooted’ in, and walking in intimacy with Christ.
SUCH humanistic logic makes absolutely NO theological sense It is SIMPLY NOT the BIBLE
Only if he blasphemes the Holy Ghost
good one – what about sleeping around ?
No. scripture states the only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the Spirit.
not IF Jeremiah 3:21 A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.
22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
Hosea 14:3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
so they were lost before returning then?
Troy Day No the elect can not be lost but they can back slide, Saul back slid and still made glory so did David, and a host of others. WHAT you don’t believe this scripture Jeremiah 3:22 22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
Troy Day But on backsliding, remember, you backslide every day. There’s no way at all for you to keep out of it. All right.
But you backslide to the people in the church, but not before God. See?
You backslide on Christ, but you don’t on God. Cause, if you’d, when you sin, you’re gone.
But you’re constantly falling. Paul had to die every day. Is that right? He had to die every day, repent every day, and just constantly repenting all the time. See?
And if Paul had to do that, then I’m going to have to, too. Aren’t you? That’s right
Where do u get that.
From the bible?
yap – read Revelation first
short answer:NO. A backslidden Christian is still a believer, saved and kept saved by the power of God
SUCH humanistic logic makes absolutely NO theological sense It is SIMPLY NOT the BIBLE
yes but the word of God reads over and over and over that a believer’s salvation is eternally secure. Otherwise, Jesus Himself is a liar as is Paul, Peter and John. Sine Jesus spoke by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and Paul, Peter and John wrote by inspiration of the same spirit that would make the Holy Spirit also a liar. And since He only testifies of what He hear from God, now all 3 Persons of the Godhead are made liars. Wow
Salvation is gift
God won’t take it away
how does he condemn them to hell then ?
Troy Day no
Peter Whiteman how so?
No
No, god doesn’t take away the gift, but we throw it away when we turn form God, and turn back to the world, and we thus lose our salvation.
No, if you “fall” away you were never saved to begin with
doesn’t that leave us all eternally insecure? where is assurance?
Charles Page a true believer will not fall away ultimately, we will fail at times but not for good. God says that he will not lose any of his sheep! There is perseverance of the saints. If we could loose our salvation we would every second because we are wretched sinners and if I lost my salvation yesterday then it means i have to “work or gain” it back today which is impossible because our “good deeds” are like filthy rags. We will only be excepted by Grace through faith in Christ ALONE!!
I don’t believe in the “you were never saved to begin with” statement. it just adds to eternally unsure
Charles Page what i mean is if someone apostates it was a false profession that had an outward appearance of godliness but inwards weren’t born again. May i am what you are measuring for your security? Was a prayer? An acceptance of Jesus into your heart or the fruit of the Spirit?
Charles Page I would encourage you to look up ligoniers ministries go to learn then teaching series, there is a sermon series on assurance the sermons are only 28mins long. There are also some on the doctrines of Grace I think would really help you understand better. It really helped me! Also John MacArthur sermon saved or self deceived. I hope this helps you with assurance!
The ligoniers ministries teaching series is only free till June 21st i think!? So if you decide to listen to them try soon. 🙂
David fell again and again but he was still being noted as a man after Gods heart. Transformation is progressive I believe…Just my thoughts only.
A fake [imposter] yes, because they only ‘professed’ but had no real/lasting relationship (and the Lord never added them to His church’.
But a born again believer who has ‘lapses’ during his ‘faith-walk’? NO, Not a BELIEVER : because
•He has been ENGRAFTED in the Lord’s hands.
•He makes intercession for Him.
•The work He began, He will complete until the Day of Jesus Christ
•Nothing shall separate a born again child from the LOVE of God
Jackie Marie Hebrews 6:4-6 reveals that people can indeed reject Christ after putting their faith in Him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” – John 8:31-32 What ‘if’ you don’t hold to Jesus’ teaching? ‘hold to’ means continue..present tense. While we cannot earn salvation, God gives it freely to those that ‘follow’, faith without deeds is dead (James 2).
how do we know we ourselves are not imposters
Where is our assurance?
Charles Page ~the Lord KNOWS who His children are. I ‘suspect’ we know if we belong to Him.
SUCH humanistic logic makes absolutely NO theological sense It is SIMPLY NOT the BIBLE
Charles Page 1 John
Yes.
Backslide, yes. Lose salvation, no. The purposes of an Almighty God cannot be thwarted. If he has purposed to save you by giving you repentance and faith in His Son, then His purpose will be accomplished.
Read Romans 8: 33
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,
“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
Jacob. Those verses don’t say anything about whether or not we can lose our salvation. They only say that no one can take it away from us. It does not say that we can’t give it up on our own. So then what do you say? Yes or No?
If a believer is truly saved the answer is no. Our salvation is a gift from God. There is nothing we can do to earn to our salvation there is nothing we can do to loose it. God does not grade on a curve. One’s name is either written in the book of life or it is not. To believe otherwise is to say that salvation is based on works and not on the grace of Jesus Christ.
Then did Peter backslide when he died Christ 3 times?? If he was never really saved, then how did Jesus acknowledge the FAITH of Peter when Peter stepped forward BOLDY and asserted in faith “Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God”. The other disciples not only had no faith, but they only regurgitated the rumors they heard “some say…..some say”. But Peter made a profession so bold that Jesus said He’d build His church on Peter’s faith. I really have a hard time when people make a rather arrogant conclusion that “if a believer is truly saved the answer is no”.
Yes.
What about Satan? He believes in God and is the Prince of Darkness.
Mike Romeo I have long been curious what substantive role Satan plays in the Calvinist paradigm. According to them, if God wills both good and evil, what is the point of Scripture mentioning Satan?
Jesus blood doesn’t cover Satan at all so that doesn’t appy here.
Angels aren’t covered by the blood of Christ since they never existed in the flesh. That’s what I’ve been taught and I do NOT have anything to back that up.
Backslide yes lose salvation no
SUCH humanistic logic makes absolutely NO theological sense It is SIMPLY NOT the BIBLE
Jesus said we would have problems and trials and tribulations whether sin or a result of testing or whatever Satan throws at us
Nathan Christopher Broome then what happened to Demas
People forfeit their salvation in Christ by the choices they make.
I just wrote a post on this very topic this week. I may post it here.
post it then
If you are believed and follow God you do not backslide, because you foundation of faith need to be strong…. if it is not you faith and Holy Spirit is death….. should be a righteous because God is Holy…. need to be clean…
When I hear this question I think of the Master’s parable of the Seed. What do you all think? Is it applicable to this question?
probably NOT but tell us how you see it
The question lies:
Was his or her repentance a genuine one? If it is so, then that individual will never turn away from God. The conviction is real.
Now, on the other hand, if that individual is not firmly grounded…( just like standing on shifting sand), then that individual is liable to backslidden.
Speaking from a genuine believers viewpoint.
speaking from a BIBLICAL point the BIBLE does tell about ppl falling off grace and faith Are they still saved ? #hardly
You mean apostatize?
Kyle Williams have you not been following all the end time conversations? Apparently apostatize (apostasia) means rapture.
Brett Dobbs oh boy…
NO one has stated that Brett Dobbs
but it does not mean apostate only
as it has been rendered in western literature
as I told link time and again
apostasia – going
parousia – coming
nothing more nothing less in the usage of these words in the BIBLE There is nothing in the word apostasia in its original Greek usage or the BIBLE about falling, drawing, etc BTW Kyle Williams does not believe one can backslide so the whole (apostasia) implicaiton as backsliding is a NO GO for the hyper calv. pretend-reform theology
Troy Day I believe in the possibility of apostasy, the scriptures teach it.
Troy Day all I can say is whatever apostasia means. The Jewish priest accused Paul of teaching the Jews to do that certain thing pertaining to the law of Moses. And they wanted to kill Paul for doing it.
So by that apostasia whatever it is, would be a thing that a person does by their own will. As like a decision being made after being convinced of something. So apostasia is the action of the apostate.
If apostasia means the leaving or going of the church. Then they are going by their own will and not by the power or the will of someone else.
When the church leaves the earth. I don’t think it’s by their own will.
Kyle Williams would this mean loosing your salvation too?
It happens far too often.