Does WORD of FAITH have a semi-gnostic dualism?
Does WORD of FAITH have a semi-gnostic dualism regarding their view of God?
Evangelist Winston Ramdath [08/05/2015 6:26 AM]
Excellent piece..
John Kissinger [08/05/2015 6:37 AM]
not too sure about the mention of dualism?
Winston Ramdath has mentioned this before except the dualism reference in the text. Does anyone know if the author is #NAR? Charisma News Lee Grady Ricky Grimsley John Conger William DeArteaga
I don’t thnk so.
I was afraid NAR and word of faith will be no easy to separate
William DeArteaga boy was I wrong: The Presiding Apostle appoints an ICA Apostolic Council to give advice and accountability. ICA members are free to bring any concerns which may arise to any or all council members. The Apostolic Council includes: Mark Chironna, James Chosa, Ron Cottle, Naomi Dowdy, John Eckhardt, Pat Francis, Bill Hamon, Dan Juster, John P. Kelly, ============Joseph Mattera=============, John Macknamara, Mel Mullen, Dennis Peacocke, Mark Pfeifer, Ed Silvoso, C. Peter Wagner, Doris Wagner, Lance Wallnau, and H. Daniel Wilson. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2011/09/01/lost-and-found-members-of-the-new-apostolic-reformation/
They aren’t smart enough to know what dualism or gnosis is
NAR or WOF?
I have spent the last two weeks listening to Bill Johnson and it seems great so far. Maybe 30 sermons.
Is he NAR?
I believe so. Im kinda freaked out by some of the manifestations of the spirit they believe they have but honestly i saw lots of that when i was a kid. Not gold dust and stuff but laughter and uncontrollable shaking and things like that. I enjoy the teaching either way.
#shame
Honestly, though. I Wonder if the the old saying “if you are a hammer….all you see is nails” applies here. Some of the guys are so focused on revival and miracles that perhaps the thought of Revelation happening is absurd to them. Many people in the church perhaps have the opposite attitude “well the world is going to hell so why bother selling out to prayer and fasting for miracles and revival because the no one will hear us and eventually they follow Antichrist”. Its a deep subject to me. Bill Johnson constantly lifts up Jesus and preaches against sin.
sounds like modern dominionism preaching with lots of of mysticism. Charles Page
Well how else to do we interpret “on earth as it is in heaven”
My response was about NAR attracting good preachers and making them the new liberation theology take over king of the world type
I totally understand the concern. They believe we can fix the world and hand it to jesus when he comes back. Unfortunately the antichrist comes first and i believe many may be deceived.
do they have to summons demons from the bottomless pit in order to do liberating ministries?
Charles Page If demons are lost in sin how do they still have the ability to have faith and tremble?
They don’t have faith; they believe and tremble from the bottomless pit
Seriously you havent seen a demon cast out in your church before?
I have been around in the Pentecostal faith all my heretofore life and never once seen a demon cast out! I was at the famous T.L. Lowery Tennessee Campmeeting “exorcism” and never was a demon cast out. Lowery got the crowd worked up to believe anything but no demons were expelled.
I allowed Charismatic exorcist to “deliver demons” and no demons were expelled. Lots of Kleenexes were used to no avail. There was snot but no demons.
It is an active imagination that is working; power of suggestion.
And how do they believe without faith? Even the demons believe that–and shudder. James 2:19
If demons have faith they are born again children of God!
They believe and tremble but don’t have faith.
Guess James 2:19 was wrong eh?
no, you are wrong about what James is saying! A lot of people make that mistake!
Even the demons believe — James 2:19
their belief is faithless, not bearing fruit.
it clearly says it bears the fruit of “shudder” (tremble) 🙂
lots of COG people shutter and tremble but not by/in faith
They are under influence of tradition, emotions suggestion but not by the Holy Spirit.
I don’t know what semi-gnostic dualism means.
All I know is that we need to have faith because we tend to lack it, we lose it when we can’t seem to find solutions. So we have to read, read, read the Holy Bible and pray, pray, pray even when we feel so down. https://www.facebook.com/334435539991308/photos/a.334437783324417.58385.334435539991308/802300903204767/?type=3&theater
Peter Ciple liked this on Facebook.
So this article proposes that a NAR preacher questions if WoF originates from Gnosticism. Where shall we start 🙂 The whole question is wrong on so many levels. Not to mention someone already asked this week about the 60s Fuller church growth movement from where Peter Wagner took roots David Lewayne Porter Ricky Grimsley John Conger <- nice to see your new avatars
Ty, I will be changing back or to another shortly.
The questions should be…
1. Are there apostles today?
2. Are the miracles and manifestations real?
3. If so, are they of God?
4. Can we just build the kingdom together and work out the eschatology on the side?
How do you see these related to Gnosticism?
Can it be gnosticism if the fruit is real?
Both are steeped in Gnosticism.
Open Theism has too more to do with gnostic beliefs than orthodox Christianity
Open-theism comes from plainly reading the scriptures, accepting them as they are and reconciling the fact the god who knows all that can be known also changes his mind.
Can the ones on stage and directing a ministry be gnostic while those within the congregation are genuine and they experience a true move of God on their behalf?
Jimmy Swaggart said in an interview after he was caught the second time that the reason his services carried on the way they did was that God would not hold against those genuine seekers in the audience the sin of those on the platform. That statement makes you think.
Im not a big fan of WOF and the only NAR person i really have any knowledge if is bill johnson. What exactly are the things you find wrong with NAR?
Open theism would have you believe that God only learned about Swaggart ‘s transgressions from the local news channel. Surprised?
Arminians would have you believe that open-theism is false because they dont understand our position and misrepresent it always when they refer to it.
Arminians would have you believe that Swaggart made his own choices #PlainBible even now when selling generators/canned goods on TBN
Libertarian free will isnt possible if God already knows them and he cant learn. Arminism is just as fatalist as calvinism they just wont admit it. Either way you have unchangeable events from before the world began….pointless. All is chosen for you and prayer changes nothing.
Prayer changes us. Thank you! Amen! Preach! David Lewayne Porter Brody Pope
See Ricky Grimsley I just knew Brody Pope would like this. It was foreseen. God was not surprised at all at that
Hahaha
The devil made Swaggarthave wo
Sexual relationship with that woman
Ricky Grimsley You think God was surprised Charles would react that way? #NO
Not at all. God knows Charles Page.
Yes his name is over the 13th gate in heaven
But i dont believe that God knew Charles Page would
Write that 6000 years ago either.
God told me to react that way
Well didnt Charles just enrich God’s knowledge
God is omniscient 6000 years ago
Jon Ray not technically. God certainly knew it was a possibility. His knowledge is infinite therefore he knows all possibilities with certainty.
God is omniscient
Charles Page we all agree that God is omniscient. We just dont agree as to what omniscient actually means.
God has all knowledge from before history past until eternity ending futuristic.
He knew it all. And he knew the way we would react in each situation. He knows us better than we know ourselves.
YET,
That does not mean that He made the decision for us or took away our personal free-will choices. In order to be just and fair He must allow us to meet those times and choices and carry through with our right to make them for ourselves.
One does not override the other, they actually fit together perfectly.
You have to be born again in order to see or enter the kingdom
Born again is not a choice but seeing and entering is our choice
David Lewayne Porter I still dont understand that reasoning. What possible purpose can we attribute to God in a creation like that. How is God not responsible for the eternal beings for doing what he created them to do.
How do we just ignore the scriptures that say God learns, feel emotions and changes his mind.
Ricky
Show me a scripture that says He learns that is not just your interpretation of your personal views.
You and I have discussed this and you just choose not to accept it.
Then dont,
But please don’t stand in disbelief as others can walk in the understanding of the difference between God’s intuitive – all knowing – omniscience knowledge and experienced knowledge (Abraham with Isaac during the sacrifice).
Genesis 22:12 ESV
[12] He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”
Every time prayer is answered?
You have not because you ask not?
Genesis 18:21 KJVS
[21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Jeremiah 32:35 KJVS
[35] And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Ricky, Ricky, ricky,
Covered that one,, Abraham and Isaac – the ram was there at the pre-appointed mountain because God knew (before a times) Abraham would be needing it.
Your issue is that you just refuse to – not that you can’t but you willing will not even try to fathom, that God knew it all in advance. But in order for God to be just and vindicated He has to let us work through it and do our part.
As far as not asking and our failure to receive…. that is simply the way that God designed it (did not the same Jesus that taught us to pray in the pray – give us this day our daily bread compare us to the Father looking out for the birds of the air – so then he knows what we need and is prepared already before we ask to provide those needs.
Please allow me to give straight simple scripture,
Matthew 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. [[like unto them – vs 7 them – there heathens.]].
I believe that scripture alone answers your question because He – God – our (my) Heavenly Father
Knows
Beforehand (before)
I
Ask (of Him)… glory, praise Him (pentecostal praise break)…
Also add to your (asking not) yet God had His writer to tell us at the same time of that statement that we also don’t receive because We are asking amiss – wrongly which was known before hand and at that time.
As far as Sodom and Gomorrah – He had already heard the cry and knew what the city was about – by the way simply show me where the God-Head entered the city to ((check it out for sure))…….
Gen 18 says three people approached Abraham on their way to Sodom
Gen 18 says “”the Lord”” stood and talked with Abraham.
Gen 18 said the “”two men”” went toward Sodom
Gen 18:20 God knew (already) from their cry that their sin ((is)) great. Which is before your verse – He already knew…. that can’t be denied –
but we are still waiting for God Himself – the God-Head to actually arrive at, in Sodom to check them out and learn something new that He/They don’t already know….
But here’s a twist.
God did not show up in Sodom because Gen 19 says two (angels)….
So how did God learn something new through his angels? ? The creator was taught by His created beings…??…
If You have stuck with me this far
Here is one of my favorites…. I did a ministry paper on fleshing out God’s call……
It is God’s will, desire, purpose, and plan to save everyone if they would willing and personally accept. It is God’s will for us to witness (Jesus’ charge to us in the gospels (end of Matt 28, Mark 16, John 17:20)
So then why does Paul ask for prayer in order to be able to witness?….
Colossians 4:2-4 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds: That I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.
Why indeed?
So we are active partakers and not just inactive bystanders (I believe you and I have discussed – robots)…
I have other stuff to attend to for now.
Blessings.
Im not disputing that God knows what we will do right before we do it and can make provision. I am disputing that when he created adam and eve that he already planned the ram caught in the bushes. Unless you say he infinitely war-gamed all possible scenarios and then narrows them down as we choose. Otherwise the future is set in stone and all prayer, choices, and hope is just an illusion.
Wait
By yours words above….
so God knows what we will do (just before) [right before] we do it and can make provision…..
Is that not still by definition FOREKNOWLEDGE?
Let’s get this point out of the way before we go any further or deeper shall we?
And no.
My God did not have to war-game each scenario (that would be God guessing – not God knowing).
My God knows.
He knows completely and prefectly.
(He’s an on time God, yes He is)
I could tell you about the last 5 weeks and Godly appointments in my and my family’s lives,, but I doubt you would accept and believe me.
(He’s an on time God, yes He is) – not a redback quote Charles Page 🙂
Prayer isnt just meant to change us. It is meant to change circumstances as well.
but our circumstances not God’s
So you dont feel that makes decisions based on our prayers? At least sometimes? Did not Moses persuade God in exodus 32?
Open theism
…is pointless
If you believe that God already knows everything that will happen…then what is the point. How many people did god condemn to hell just by creation knowing for sure they would go there. Sounds kinda mean dont you think
If you are Calvinism you are mean but if you are Arminianism you are mean.
I feel like calvinism and arminianism is basically the same. The difference is whether God ordained it or just knew it would be and created it anyway. Either way you have an unchangeable future set in stone from before the world began.
Both are mean to people
Arminianism is more deceptive
I agree with that.
Never met a Calvinist who have won the lottery even once
Arminians have the inclination to play the lottery, figuratively!
God has all knowledge from before history past until eternity ending futuristic.
He knew it all. And he knew the way we would react in each situation. He knows us better than we know ourselves.
YET,
That does not mean that He made the decision for us or took away our personal free-will choices. In order to be just and fair He must allow us to meet those times and choices and carry through with our right to make them for ourselves.
One does not override the other, they actually fit together perfectly.
I dont see how you people dont get it. Either way its a completely predetermined future. Pointless.
I know what you mean. I have been thinking about dropping out of this group that doesn’t get it!
God predestined us all to go to Heaven. But everybody doesn’t want to go. They don’t believe in Him. He died for them anyway where they could go if they choose. But everyone doesn’t want to go. God left them their choice. Just like the two trees in the garden of Eden. They had a choice obey Gods word. And leave it alone. Or eat it and die. They wanted what they wasn’t suppose to eat. Well God made a way back to Him. Except Jesus and live. Or just don’t believe His Words and miss it. So sad when they don’t believe.
Ricky, we (at least I am) thinking the same about you.
You see two words can be interchanged in your statement which changes the meaning.:
Predetermined, I would substitute preknown.
He pre-knows our responses and in that manner knows the outcome.
There is a predetermined outcome for mankind (and satan with his spiritual followers as well). But there is no predestination to hell even though God knew. To fulfill all the Scriptures He must allow us to live out our lives which includes making the choices He knew we would make ahead of time.
Viewing Him in any less fashion is in essence (lessen His office and position, His abilities and who He actually personally is).
I heard this today,
“We will always get God wrong:
But in getting Him wrong we will by human nature lessen Him instead of over exaggerate Him”. (By Beth Moore – her study – – A Woman’s Heart, God’s Dwelling Place).
Beth moore might always get god wrong because she thinks she can catch the holy spirit in a butterfly net but i will keep trying to do my best. Again i still think you do not recognize that whatever you call it a preknown future by a god who cant learn (known from before creation) is still a predetermined future because he knew it….. And created that way anyway. Mercy, grace, and justice…..how do they exist where the future can not change.
Ricky Grimsley
I don’t think anyone can say they always get God right.
I truly question someone that does not see a God that created everything perfectly (with freewill) including His leader in worship – Lucifer which he knew would happen to fail.
? Why was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil placed in the garden?
Was it for God to learn?
Was it for the angels?
Was it for the animals?
It had only two practical purposes (as a tithe to God because He always requires something and keeps it for Himself, and as a test of obedience).
The only ones that could partake of it were Adam and Eve.
So why was it there when God told them to leave it alone, when it was for no one else? Do we think God did not know that they were going to partake of it and they were the only ones that could?
How do you work that into your theology of foreknowledge? I am just curious…..
You seem to think knowing ahead of time is predetermination. Pre-determination would be if He did not let us make the choice.
Until you can work that out within your spirit (and not your head) you are stuck right where you are.
I love when my God shows up and proves He knew beforehand through (God appointments) and Orchestrated events. (Several times for my family in the past 5 weeks).
I just see it as the opposite as what you say. God had to test them to find out? What is the alternative….that God created them to fail. Thats certainly possible if you feel that Gods intention was always to incarnate himself to redeem everything that lucifer had corrupted by his fall.
knowing from before the world was created and predetermination are the same thing. He still created knowing what every detail. All my choices were made. All the horrible things too. My prayers changed nothing because it was known from before the world began and you believe he cant learn so the outcomes can never change either.
Ricky Grimsley
To answer your own question
Explain this;
Revelation of John 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
And since the earth and the garden in Eden were created for man to abide in, commentate this please;
Matthew 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit “”the kingdom”” [prepared for you from the foundation of the world]:
Rev 21&22. A city not placed in Eden at the beginning, so how is it here now and it was created from the foundation of the world?
It was predetermined for everyone to go to Heaven. Do you remember when the children of Israel was going through the Wilderness. How because of their complaining. God sent fiery serpents. The snakes represent sin. If they were bitten by the poison snakes. They had no way to live. Moses prayed to the Lord, and asked God what to do. The Lord told Moses to make a brazen serpent and put it on a pole. Lift it up where everyone could see it. If they got bitten by a poison snake, to look upon the brazen serpent. And they would live. The brazen serpent represented Jesus being lifted up on the Cross. We have all sinned. So what did they do if they got bitten by the snake. Did they say oh the Lord knows if I will live are not. No they looked upon the brazen serpent that was lifted upon the pole. What happened. Did they die anyway? No they didn’t. They lived. Because they believed what Moses told them. So they looked upon the brazen serpent and lived. So the time comes that God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life. Did He say a certain few that He knows will go? No that’s isn’t what He said. He said whosoever believes in Him shall not perish. But have Everlasting Life. Are you going to be one of those who say well He knows if I will go. No He says you Will if you believe in Him. That’s why we preach to try to get as many as we can to believe in Jesus who died for you, for you, for You. And everyone else if they would believe on Him. He said in His Word, that He was long suffering, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to Repentance. Did He say a few would come to repentance ? No He said He is Long Suffering , not willing that any should perish. But All, But All. But All should come to Repentance.
Everyone wont go. Strictly because everyone won’t believe in Him. But He wants them to. He Paid a Big Price for us. To believe in Him. The thing about it He didn’t have to do it. He said He could call twelve Legions of a angels to deliver Him. He prayed Father if it be thy Will. Let this Cup Pass From Me. Never The Less Not My Will But Thine Be Done. I think He Could Look and see You And Me. And The Whole World. He was Willing to Die where no one would have to go to hell. In the Bible. He was talking about Jerusalem. He said Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem. How oft I Would Have Gathered You under My Wings as a
Ricky Grimsley
To answer your own question
Explain this;
Revelation of John 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
And since the earth and the garden in Eden were created for man to abide in, commentate this please;
Matthew 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit “”the kingdom”” [prepared for you from the foundation of the world]:
Rev 21&22. A city not placed in Eden at the beginning, so how is it here now and it was created from the foundation of the world m
Are you talking about washing Peters feet?
I know you are talking the revelation God gave to John. This includes a lot about the antichrist. I want to put some study on it and not jus say something from the top of my head. I’ll study it and give an answer.
Louise Cummings
If your response is for me, my posts were rhetorical and for Ricky to check his theology.
It was a poison pill.
or. Because God made man with choices. He wanted man to make the Choice to serve Him because ofHe loved Him and Him alone and not because he had no other choice. If the forbidden tree hadn’t been there. Man would have one choice. That would be you can never have a choice. So God put two trees there. Now you can choose me because you love me. God is my choice. But he had another choice. If you don’t want to love Me. You want to choose what I want to do. I want to do it my way. When they ate the forbidden tree. It’s like God was saying. You got it. Do it your way. But God knew everyone didn’t want it his way. He wanted it Gods way. So God made a way that we could choose Him. But it would take a great price. It will take spotless Blood. That didn’t come through man that sinned. If he had come through the seed of a man. Then he would have needed a Savor. So Gods Son was born through the seed of the woman. But it would be conceived of The Holy Ghost. So you know the rest of the story. He was born , died on the Cross. Buried and arose to give man that wanted it a choice. You can serve God if you want to. If you don’t want to then you don’t have to. It’s your choice. But if you choose not to. Then you will stand before Him someday and give an account to him. And I was explaining this all to Ricky. He can laugh at it or take it serious. But I’ll keep on giving answers as long as the story of God is going out. Maybe if you don’t want to believe it. Maybe someone will see it and will help them.
No I wasn’t talking to you. I was explaining how much Jesus wants everyone saved. I was talking to Ricky. I do not know what you are talking about. A poison pill. Maybe that’s yours and Ricky cup of tea. I don’t know what you are talking about.
If you was serious about what Rev 13:8. Meant. You can put it back up.
Louise Cummings
A poison pill is an argument that if you persist to use it, it will defeat itself. All you have to do is sit back watch.
I wasn’t teaching a poison pill. I was giving Bible. It is life. Abundant Life.
I did not say you. (I explained my use of poison pills).
I use them often. My charge is to give them truth on a personal level. A poison pill forces them to examine the Gospel in the light of their theology between God and themselves. That is my charge as a minister.
Be blessed.
Ok. Thank you. I hues dive never heard some of the terms used on here. Lie initials for a church. I don’t know what church they are talking about. I know CoG. Is Church Of God. And A G is Assembly Of God. That’s about it. I don’t know all the term used on here. That was suppose to be I have never heard some of these terms on here.
Unless of course you are the blessed elect, which of course we all believe we are. Stinks to the muslim bomber kid raised to hate and strap on a bomb at thirteen. No virgins for you, only eternal hell because you didnt accept jesus you never about. Oh btw he always knew you strap on the bomb and blow yourself up but he made you that way. Lociento mucho.
So sad. You can see today how the devil is deceiving people. So sad.
Louise – these guys are just jokester And pranks – they might be Christians though – I’m not sure 😉
I know. You are wright. And there is a few but very few that that’s get saved and believes in God. God still gave them a chance when He died for them. Of course not many will ever believe. But God gave them a Chance. It their fault they are deceived and doesn’t believe. But God paid the price , and gave them a chance to believe even if they nerve do believe.
I believe the anti Christ will come through them. But that my option. I base it on things the Bible says. And how things are shaping up now.
Good
Did some digging on the author per OP and he has an interesting article about Charismatics, Kerygmatics and CHARISMANIACs
QUOTE: “Out of the Pentecostal movement arose the Charismatic movement of the 1960’s and 1970’s in which the historic denominational churches received the second blessing (baptism of the Holy Spirit) with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.”
One must ask the question: which are these historic denominational churches? Either way because the phrase “second blessing (baptism of the Holy Spirit) with the evidence of speaking in other tongues” has tons of problems.
For one, second blessing in most historic denominational churches has referred to Wesleyan sanctification
Then, most Charismatic churches today do not affirm a mandatory evidence of speaking in other tongues for the Holy Ghost baptism
And last but not least there are distinct historical and theological differences between Pentecostals and Charismatics that are hardly equalized by simply accepting speaking in tongues
http://josephmattera.org/ten-signs-you-are-a-charismaniac/
Well, I am pleased to announce that I am not charismatic (according to this article).
And as a note #7 is just weird.
7. You claim to speak to the saints in heaven – has to be more catholic than charismatic David Lewayne Porter dont know about FOREKNOWLEDGE but it is definitely allKNOWLEDGE? Ricky Grimsley
Jon Ray
#7 yes more catholic, yet the article said charismatic. That was my point.
According to Land: Pentecostalism is more Orthodox than Catholic, more Eastern than Western… David Lewayne Porter John Ruffle
All I ever heard about charismatic. Is they were taught how to speak in tongs. I don’t know much more than that about them. The Bible said they spake as the Holy Ghost came upon them. We are not to teach them to speak in tongues. The Holy Ghost gives that utterance.
Louise Cummings
They (the majority) do not teach seekers how to speak in tongues, they just removed all of the man made mess like (hold on – turn loose, praise Him – praise Him – praise Him – praise Him, Hallelujah-50 times fast). The Others thought they were teaching them because they did not have to all night in the altar working up a sweat and getting overly emotional. They got to the foundation of being saved, having a clean heart, and seeking to receive the free (gift) of the indwelling of The Comforter, The 3rd Person of The God-Head (His name is) Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost.
The disciples simply laid hands on unfilled believers who had the desire.
And it IS that simple.
Sorry. But that what I’ve always heard. I didn’t know much more. I thought it was s form of Pentecost Cost. Kinda like us. But just taught people to speak in tongue. I didn’t know for sure.
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/americas-last-call-by-kenneth-hagin-sr/
Kenneth Hagin (sr), I guess we can stop there.
I read nothing he puts out. I do not listen to anything he says if I can at all avoid it.
Why. I don’t listen to him either. But not because of what he teaches. Because I don’t listen enough to know what he teaches. There’s usually someone on I had rather hear. So I listen to the one I like best.
#WoF ?
Gnosticism is found in many forms of modern day theology. Open theism is also one prominent example of gnostic influence Ricky Grimsley
In what way….by reading the scriptures and believing what they say? There is nothing gnostic in my theology. Every Time i see open-theology mentioned m, its never represented the way i believe it.
I’ve shown before whereas open theism is gnostic
Just putting a label on it doesnt deal with what the scriptures say.
Yup. It’s basically witchcraft
Nope. We talked extensively and proved as for whys so once again Open Theism has more to to with gnostic beliefs than orthodox Christianity. So says Roger E. Olson http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/05/r-i-p-dallas-willard-and-was-he-an-open-theist/
Lol open theism is witchcraft? Wow its kinda hard to have a conversation with people that would deny that im even saved. Well i guess you proved me wrong. No need to talk about what the bible says. Just say “gnostic” “heretic” or “that’s not orthodox ” and that ends the argument. Guess its a good thing none of you lived during calvins day. Where would you go to church?
Whats the point of having a discussion group if everything is already figured out. I wonder how any us would fair in a moderated debate where questions had to actually be answered.
I saw matthew prince joined the group. Has he engaged in any discussion yet. He used to be my pastor for awhile.
I don’t really care about Open Theism, but by all means make an apology for WoF. I used to adhere to WoF. It doesn’t work. It’s a sham built on false and novel metaphysical assumptions.
I just wanted to establish that both teaching are heavily influenced by Gnostic thought. As for how wrong or right they are as theology was not my purpose of presenting the obviously valid argument of gnostic influence
The foundation of WoF is new thought metaphysics. Why else did Carlton Pearson dive right into New Though after he apostatized?
Well i fail to see gnosticism in open-theism. Its certainly not i got there. As for WoF I certainly see it. Its part of the whole parallel system that produced alchemy,the mystery religions, and the occult. However, we cant just look at orthodoxy and say “believe that in faith”. We look to the scriptures and search them to see if these thing be so like the Bereans.
Roger E. Olson gives a good foundation for gnosticism in open-theism http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/05/r-i-p-dallas-willard-and-was-he-an-open-theist/
Where was gnosticism mentioned in that article. In your own words tell me how open theism came from believing that the material world is evil and the jehovah is basically evil and sophia created the demiurge and all that nonsense.
Of course there is the problem of even identifying a thing commonly called “Gnosticism”
Open theism is basically viewed as a Third Wave doctrine. (also known as free-will theism, open theology and openness of God) It was, until recently, a little-known stirring on the fringes of the evangelical camp. In 1980, few noticed and fewer cared about perennial rebel Clark Pinnock and his friends, who claimed they had discovered the “true” biblical understanding of God. But more recently their views have both matured and emerged into the mainstream of Christian thought through the writings of among others, Pinnock, Gregory A. Boyd, professor of theology at Bethel College (Baptist General Conference) and Professor John Sanders. More lethal is the fact that this new concept of God is sneaking in through the backdoor of the camp by means of popular writers such as Phil Yancey, and the influence of men like Gilbert Bilezikian, who, as the resident theologian of the Willow Creek Community Church, wields tremendous power over the minds of many modern church leaders.
Open theism and gnosticism sure do make great bedfellows. Jesus, through whom the world was created, and who essentially ‘invented’ physics, can’t possibly know anything about physics while he is trapped in his human body on earth. Really? That sure sounds more like science fiction that the actual truth of hypostatic union. I don’t even know how to respond to that. Amazing how Jesus’ deity is affirmed and promptly denied in one paragraph. In fact, virtually all the books I have read of this are replete with self contradicting teachings…
I realize that there are “open-theists” that are way off, but i dont quit believing in the trinity because John macauthur says its ok to take the mark of the beast. Regardless of how many times you mention gnosticism it doesnt change the scriptures that say God learns, the future changes, and God changes his mind.
I mean who really does all the tap dancing with scriptures. Some who starts with the scriptures and tries to conform his worldview to what they say….or the people that start with a concept of God and try to make the scriptures fit their belief. Besides if you believe in a settled future why even preach today.
God does not change. Jesus Christ is the SAME yesterday today and forever. That’s why He is the Eternal Son – doesnt and cannot change. What a mess it would be if God changes? Our AoG has long settled the open theism heresy as agnostic as well as should every other Pentecostal movement.
How much does God know and control?
If by that question one is asking about the ultimate intentions of God, about whether the kingdom of this world will become the
kingdoms of our Lord and Christ, about whether the justice of God will be revealed from heaven against evil doers, or about whether God will wipe away every tear in His kingdom, the answer is He will see to it that is accomplished.
But, if one is asking about the specific day-to-day choices of humans who are free to choose otherwise, the answer is that while He knows the choice that I will make, He does not control that choice.
God is omniscient without violating human freedom
This has always been the Arminianism view and it does not change
https://www.agts.edu/faculty/faculty_publications/articles/railey_open-theism.pdf
The character of jesus or God doesnt change but didnt jesus eternally take on being a man as well. Was god already a man?
“So that what we say about future events being foretold, we do not say it as if they came about by a fatal necessity; but God foreknowing all that shall be done by all men, and it being His decree that the future actions of men shall all be recompensed according to their several value, He foretells by the Spirit of prophecy that He will bestow meet rewards according to the merit of the actions done, always urging the human race to effort and recollection, showing that He cares and provides for men.” – JUSTIN MARTYR, THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN, CHAP. XLIV
How can jesus be our high priest ” that can be touched with our infirmities” if he really cant be touched.
“…And therefore this [present] fashion has been formed temporary, God foreknowing all things; as I have pointed out in the preceding book,(15) and have also shown, as far as was possible, the cause of the creation of this world of temporal things.” – Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, CHAP. XXXVI.
It seems like you avoid discussing the scriptures. Lets talk about the bible. Justin Martyr isnt God-breathed neither iranaeus.
Really? How did you figure? Is it because I am quoting the Church Fathers again? Did they avoid discussing the scriptures too 🙂 Pls refer to Karen Lucas for mandatory Pentecostal education in early church history
Why quote iranaeus when you cant quote God himself? Scripture is given for…..not early church fathers.
Open theism was introduced in 1994. Where was open theism in the past 1994 years of Christianity? None of the church fathers ever figured to come up with something so absurd? Such a typical new-age agnosticism
Nice argument lol. Jesus sounded pretty open when he told peter Matthew 26:53-54 KJVS
[53] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? [54] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Open theism hand by hand with calivnism – dont put the boat before the horse Timothy Carter Charles Page Henry Volk
I thought the purpose of this site was to reason through the scriptures not to ridicule. The old me was very skilled in witty sarcasm and ridicule but he is currently on the cross.
Scriptures quoted and interpreted promptly – you say naah
Church fathers quoted and explained – you say naah
Modern day theologians quoted and fully explaining the problems with open theism you still say naah
Over and over again pointed out this is not a page, site or a web but a discussion group – you still disregard with naah
What’s there left to do as you still say naah but show you a picture worth 10 000 words and you say baah
Paul L. King when you did your study on Word of Faith did you encounter any of the research of Bruce Liption? https://www.brucelipton.com/
Troy Day my studies were pre 2002. I did not come across his name. I believe his first book was published about 10 years ago. My studies focused mainly on Hagin, Copeland, Fred Price, Tilton, Kenyon, etc– the origami and earlier WOF leaders
correct – about 10yts ago – he is a PSY doctor
ALL of these are NOT TOO FAR from faith healing theology
Belief Change and Energy Psychology Modalities
Psych-K
PSYCH-K is a set of principles and processes designed to change subconscious beliefs that limit the expression of your full potential as a divine being having a human experience. From Bruce Lipton: “I teach with Rob Williams the orginator of PSYCH-K. This is the modality that I use personally and with which I am most familiar.”
Core Health
Why don’t they look for what is right with me?” Core Health is a non-cultural, non-religious expansion of our inborn core of health — what is right in us! Advancing from studying disease to understanding Health, this innovative process moves beyond treating symptoms to Truly Freeing each individual by internal energetic decisions. Core Health leaps to the core of pure health, removing energy distortions for free flow of positive energy. The highly-effective DTQ Process (Deeply, Thoroughly, Quickly) dynamically achieves precise, experienced, permanent re-activation of a person’s innate healthy core.
Body Talk Systems
BodyTalk is an astonishingly simple and effective form of therapy that allows the body’s energy systems to be re-synchronized so that they can operate as nature intended. Each system, cell and atom is in constant communication with each other at all times. Through exposure to the stresses of day-to-day life, these lines of communication become compromised, which then leads to a decline in physical, emotional and/or mental health. Reconnecting these lines of communication then enables the body’s mechanisms to function at optimal levels, thus preventing disease and rapidly accelerating the healing process. BodyTalk can be used as a stand-alone system to treat many health problems, or seamlessly integrated into any health care system to increase its effectiveness and promote faster healing.
Brain Sync – Conscious Evolution
Your subconscious is a powerhouse of intelligence in action. It acts on your beliefs and perceptions. Kelly Howell’s programs, using theta binaural beats combined with suliminal messages, reach deep into your subconscious mind to instill new ideas and beliefs. In a short time you’ll notice positive, even remarkable changes occurring in your life. The results are profound!
Emotional Freedom Technique
Based on impressive new discoveries regarding the body’s subtle energies, Emotional Freedom Techniques (EFT) has been proven successful in thousands of clinical cases. It applies to just about every emotional, health and performance issue you can name and it often works where nothing else will.
Resonance Repattering
Quantum Change made easy. The Resonance Repatterning System – Resonance Repatterning System is an energy process which can help you identify and clear the patterns of energy underlying any issue, problem or pain you are experiencing.
Inner Resonance Technologies
IRT has 7 brief steps that facilitate you in making certain inner agreements that set the conditions to allow your own automatic system to rebalance and harmonize itself physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually, transforming all parts of your life.
Instant Emotional Healing
Instant Emotional Healing: Acupressure for the Emotions, by Peter T. Lambrou, Ph.D. and George J. Pratt, Ph.D. Drs. Pratt and Lambrou have created a book that explains the foundations of a new branch of therapy call energy psychology.
Neurolink’s Neurological Integration System
NIS is based upon the neurophysiology principle that the brain governs optimum function of all the body systems. Prioritized treatment protocols are used to assess the function of all the body’s systems, and all the factors that have or could translate themselves to symptoms.Neurolink’s protocols leverage the brain’s profound ability to restore the body and all its systems to full potential.
Silva Ultramind System
The Silva UltraMind Seminar is the pinnacle of the work of Jose Silva, developed in the late 90s – just shortly before Mr. Silva passed away in 1999. The Silva UltraMind System trains you to use your mind to such a powerful extent that within a few days you are able to demonstrate ESP and influence healing in others. We also teach you how to identify your mission in life and to use the power of your creative mind, to propel you toward this goal.
The Healing Codes
Now, you can discover how to: * Super Charge your immune system. * Help your body heal itself. * Turn on your natural healing systems to heal your pain, stress, fear, depression and disease. * Turn your body’s cells from Protect Mode to Growth Mode. In growth mode, your body’s cells can protect you from or heal almost anything.
The Henddricks Institute
Resources for conscious living and loving.
NetMindBody
The Neuro Emotional Technique (NET) is a powerful intervention that can assess and alleviate the internal stressors that are creating barriers to health and success.
Holosync
The lazy man’s way to meditate. Listening to this amazing, scientifically proven brain technology gives you all the benefits of meditation — in a fraction of the time — easily and effortlessly.
Lifeflow Meditation
Thousands of people worldwide are experiencing tremendous benefits with the scientifically proven, cutting edge technology of the most powerful personal growth and mind improvement system ever.
Embody Truth
The nature of this work is to ‘use techniques’ to have a direct experience of yourself, to achieve healing trauma, developing core essence, higher and more embodied states of consciousness and a more sovereign and heart-centered presence.
Rosen Method
Rosen Method is distinguished by its gentle, direct touch. Using hands that listen rather than manipulate, the practitioner focuses on chronic muscle tension. As relaxation occurs and the breath deepens, unconscious feelings, attitudes, and memories may emerge.
The Body Code System of Natural Healing
By learning “The Body Code System for Ultimate Energy Healing and Body Balancing System”, you will gain tools to help yourself by releasing the blocks that hold you back from being totally healthy, from being successful in business, and from finding love and happiness in your life. You will be much better able to find and correct the underlying imbalances that are preventing you from having the health and happiness that may be currently avoiding you!
The Journey
The Journey is now recognized internationally as one of the most powerful healing processes available, accessing the body’s own healing wisdom at the deepest level of ‘source’ or the soul.
Eric Pearl and the Reconnective Healing
Discover how to immediately access new frequencies of healing.
Rapid Eye Technology
Rapid Eye Technology is a natural, safe way to release stress and trauma by simulating REM sleep, your body’s own natural release system. This powerful quick release happens without reliving the trauma. Accessing the whole mind/body system while in an awake state allows you to be in control of your own journey.
Consciousness 2.0
Your whole system can be upgraded. When you upgrade your programming, you will uninstall fear, judgment, limitation, struggle and pain programming. Install your Highest True Self consciousness, programmed for compassion, joy, unity and abundance.
https://www.brucelipton.com/other-resources#belief-change
I am posting them in relation to one specific one which I’ve been observing being practiced quite a bit in the field namely Rapid Eye REM Technology – images broadcast fast before the eyes to mimic sleep for stress and trauma release
resembling rapid screen changes on scrolling FB on your phone – much info going too fast to understand but STILL remembered by the brain as SEEN
concert like lighting and images during worship service
some transference and brain effect Isara Mo
what are fog machines used for in modern mega services?
Troy Day
Thanks for the links…
I.have listened twice to Prof Lipton teaching healing.He has some strong arguments.
Self healing..the ability to take away the sickness or disease or affliction is best explained as faith that works or a working faith.
Jesus didn’t pray to all to heal them but He simply said “YOUR FAITH….has healed you”
The Bible doesn’t say much about the subconscious so most of the stuff on this innermost part of our being comes from Scientific sources…and we know that Science uses logic, reason, research, experiments to establish these things…but it all boils down to mind activity…and mind has a limitation…
However, because of very limited Biblical knowledge on the subconscious we have to accept these scientific findings..they might help us in our spirituality….
I was reading David Yong (former buddhist now pastor)book called the 4th Dimension and he said something that i remember well.He said it bothered him much that Buddhist monks cured and healed people of cancer…through meditation.
I’m not surprised at the long list of the many methods of healing you have posted.
“Energy channelling” is just one of the many ancient practises of healings eg the Chinese Yin and Yang.(the Chi energy operations) or the Hindus Ayuverdic healings which were in existence years before Jesus came along with power of the WORD …
My worry is that most if not all knowledges have a source…question is this: these healing methods are they Godly?
New Agers have many healing practises…and you know that New Age is not of Christ…
Twenty years ago I used chiropractic and homeopathic as alternative medical practices but when I came to Jesus I believe the Word to the core..
No alternative.
Isara Mo In my upcoming book “Is It of God?” I have a chapter on true and counterfeit healing. Psychic healing powers are real but not from God. Chi/prana is a counterfeit of biblical healing. Only a Christian can manifest the energy of God (Eph. 3:20) When Jesus said, “Your faith has healed you,” He was not saying that faith is the source of the healing as some word of faith people claim, because Jesus Himself is the only source of healing. Faith is a conduit, a channel for healing, not the source. Claiming the power of faith (any faith) to heal takes the glory away from God.
would love to have the intro chapter to post for discussion in our group
Paul L. King
Blessed
Troy Day
Good idea
Paul L. King
Doc you say that Christians are the only one with the power of true healing..ie they are the only one who can manifest the energy of God(Eph 3:20) in view of alternative healing..eg acupuncture, ayuverdic(pranic).
What about conventional(allopathic ) treatments ?
We all know that millions if not billions of people globally are getting the benefits of this type of healing and compared to the rest of the healings, even faith healing, allopathic healings is saving millions of lives without being prayed for…
Should we give glory to God for this class of medication since you say Jesus is the only source of healing..and claiming the power of faith(any faith) takes glory from God.
The Chinese, Indians, Africans and almost every tribe and race have had traditional methods of healings using herbs, seeds and roots which have healed many…
To whom do we ascribe glory in this case?..
Sorry I have jumped to chapter 2 of your book without your consent(just joking) but I truly believe your book is timely because I know a lot of Christians have taken to alternative treatments while at the same time claiming “Jesus is my healer”.
Isara Mo medications and natural supplements, yes, but chi/prana/psychic/energy healing, crystals,, Reiki, Therapeutic Touch, etc.–NO. These open up doors to the occult and demonic oppression. Oral Roberts believed in supernatural divine healing, proper care for the body, whole person healing, and built a hospital. But none of it involved any Eastern or psychic powers.
Paul L. King
Thanks
Link pictured in the article is apostle Matera Click on the picture for full Charisma article He somewhat reluctantly states
3. They have a semi-gnostic dualism regarding their view of God.
Word of Faith preachers have a simple view of God: Everything that is good is of God, and everything bad is from the devil.
Troy Day That “simple” view is clearly the Bible view, Jesus’ revelation of the nature of the Father. That we have an enemy who is the source of all evil is clear throughout the New Testament. Theology tries to go beyond the simple Gospel and often tries to come up with alternatives because unbelief.
In my studies of word of faith, I would agree that many of them have a simple view of God, except I would use the word “simplistic.” Although there may be some “semi-gnostic” like implications, I believe the term “gnostic” is much overused. Also, there tends to be a blanket categorization lumping all word of faith people together, when in fact, not all faith people teach the same thing.
It is true that many have the simple, but mistaken belief that everything good is of God and everything bad is of the devil. Often time the Scriptures that say something otherwise are glossed over such as God’s words through Isaiah: “I am the Lord, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity (Heb–
Ra”–bad); I am the Lord who does all these. (Isaiah 45:6-7) (see also Jeremiah 18:8, 11; 19:3, 15; 23:12; 25:29
Paul L. King I guess Materra is WoF I know he was NAR on the apostolic council but I have not followed with him until seeing him quite a bit on the Charisma mag
Nothing new. Rapid eye is now a popular method of therapy.
well hold on now – I would agree on nothing NEW but as far as new praxis of ancient demonic eye bewitching I would draw the line and point to the occult in it
Everyone is more or less akin little to this or that but the one who goes extreme without any restrain is then called cult. How is this?
which one exactly – WoF or REMov ?
Something I found frustrating about WOFers, some of them, is that sometimes they reject Biblical thinking agent it conflicts with their theories.
For example, they say God never makes anyone sick. But what of the verse where God tells Israel if they are obedient He will lay none of the sicknesses on them that He sid upon the Egyptians, meaning He lay sicknesses among the Egyptians.
And Hagin’s theory that only the Devil and not God brings calamities, based on the guess that all Hebrew references to God inflicting such things means He merely allowed it does not hold up. Did God allow Himself to lay sickness on the Egyptians. God still takes credit.
I also wonderwhat a Bible that follows positive confession philosophy would look like. Peter’s mother-in-law would have fever symptoms.
Link Hudson Writers of the Old Testament had a lesser understanding off the nature of God, and often attributed both good and evil to Him. It took Jesus’ revelation of God’s true nature to get beyond O.T. misunderstanding.
No the Bible is true and some moderns just do not get it. God can even use Satan.
Link Hudson
WoF teachings resonance Law of Attraction teachings…(my views)
http://www.oocities.org/vcchurch/faith/faithtract.html
Possibly..
I know everyone Jesus healed eventually died – and not by natural death.
How do you mean? What about the little girl and son of the widow? What information do you have on their passing?
David Levandusky
What do you mean?
Troy Day It is appointed unto man (mankind, human) once to die and after this the judgment. At some time during their life span they died. They eventually died though we dont know what from. If the Lord tarries all of us will die too and who knows what from even tho the Lord has healed us many times. And for what reason they or we die I dont know but am sure it wont be because of a lack of faith or sin in ones life. For some tho it might be just that. But yes – everyone Jesus healed eventually died.
Oh, no doubt. In fact, they generally resemble Christian Science in terms of certain key elements of belief. Some even recommend against psychotherapy for serious mental illness.
NAR does? – do tell more about that
This describes it well: https://apologiaway1.wordpress.com/2018/03/22/the-new-age-positive-confession-word-of-faith-heresy/
Joshua A. Humphries
Spiritual.fanaticism…is dangerous.
There are some ministers who forbid believers from taking medication to prove that God can heal them..
They will cite “My righteous shall live by faith” as point of argument…
That’s my point, Isara.
Joshua A. Humphries
I know that was the point and I just wanted to emphasise.
Be blessed.
I figured, but I also just wanted to be extra emphatic.
but Joshua A. Humphries many practiced positive confession long before NAR and much longer before WoF – it wasnt even a WoF original doctrine but it was borrowed at large just like the 5-fold ministry was preached and practiced long before NAR
Troy Day
Does any WoF cast out demons?
A few years back we were having a discussion of the Word with some WoF friends and they were very insistent on having a ” spiritual father” (which is good) but when we mentioned deliverance and the devil, they told me they ” they had no time to discuss the devil…”
And yet I could see that my friends had need for deliverance…
Troy Day I don’t see WoF Ministries casting out demons PUBLICLY as many Pentecostal churches do, could there be some doctrinal prohibition?
I’ve seen WoF do lots of things incl. becoming Catholics
I know Dr. Paul Paul L. King did a major work on the WoF movement but I did not know about the new “Blessed” book by Kate Bowler, an excellent book about the history of the American prosperity “gospel”. I was surprised to read what Micael Grenholm described as numerous and explicit the connections to occult New Thought teaching were among early prosperity preachers. I tend to disagree with that Apart from 2 authors that I know I was not aware of numerous or explicit such and would like to learn more about
I am personally NOT a bit surprised about how much of a theological problem the 2008 recession was (a year that had been promised by multiple prosperity prophets to be a year of abundance). Even Obama cried yes we can back then and now we have what a very respected minister called a prosperity gospel POTUS <= #there https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/10/30/christian-fortune-tellers-now-offer-destiny-card-readings/?fbclid=IwAR37FGUDcY_14Qiwsu33DZZxJZX62_857MBdsKRiSo0zK8KIB4glEmzq5RU