Dr. French L. Arrington: The Bible and Alcoholic Beverages, BEER, WINE, LIQUORS and TOTAL ABSTINENCE
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BEER, WINE, AND LIQUORS: TOTAL ABSTINENCE
Historically, the Church of God has been committed to sanctification and holiness (uncompromised devotion to God) and has maintained that the Bible strongly prohibits the use of beer, wine, and liquors. An early doctrinal statement of the church’s teaching urges “total abstinence from all liquor and strong drink” (Church of God Evangel, August 15, 1910, p. 3).
Emphasizing this teaching, the Church of God Practical Commitments reminds us of our liberty in Christ (John 8:32, 36; Rom. 6:14; 8:2 NKJV) and counseled us not to put ourselves under bondage (Gal. 5:1). “Therefore, a Christian must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages and other habit-forming and mood-altering chemical substances . . .” (Minutes of the 75th International General Assembly, 2014, p. 28). Our main focus is on what the Bible teaches about the total abstinence from all social, recreational, or other uses of alcohol.
The Bible and Alcoholic Beverages
Both the Old and the New Testaments employ a number of words for alcoholic drink. The major Hebrew words are yayin (wine) and shekar (strong drink), and the Greek is oinos (wine). Leading Hebrew and Greek lexicons indicate that these Biblical terms refer to drinks that have some alcoholic content. Even sweet or new wine (Hebrew: asis and Greek: gleukos), which was probably still fermenting and thought by many to be mere grape juice, can be intoxicating (Isa. 49:26).
Alcohol in the Old Testament
The first example of the evil effects of alcohol in the Old Testament is the story of Noah (Gen. 9:20-27). In this story, drunkenness led to shame and to family tragedy and a curse placed upon Canaan. Wine was also a factor in incest that led to the pregnancies of Lot’s daughters (Gen. 19:31-38). We also see cautions regarding alcohol in Solomon’s writings; for example, “Wine is a mockery, strong drink is raging; and whoever is deceived thereby is not wise” (Prov. 20:1; cf. 23:29-35).
In summary, the Old Testament opposes the use of alcohol for these major reasons:
- Strong drink distorts the perception of reality and impairs performance (Isa. 29:7).
- Strong drink interferes with sound judgment and the capacity to make responsible decisions (Lev. 10:9-11).
- Strong drink weakens spiritual and moral sensitivities (Isa. 5:11-12).
- Strong drink can lead to addiction (Prov. 23:35).
These reasons are sufficient grounds for Christians to abstain and not even consider drinking.
Alcohol in the New Testament
The New Testament also speaks about the grave effects of alcoholic beverage (oinos, wine).
Many references to wine (except its medicinal use in 1 Tim. 5:23 and a few others) are strong warnings or prohibitions against its use. A powerful indictment against wine is in Eph. 5:18, where the use of alcoholic drink has the potential of causing wild and disorderly conduct. The warning is that being under the control of strong drink is totally incompatible with being filled with the Holy Spirit.
In his inspired wisdom, Paul establishes spiritual requirements for those holding office in the Church of our Lord. He instructs the church leaders, whether pastors (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7) or deacons (1 Tim. 3:8,) regarding the consumption of alcohol to be “blameless,” strongly implying total abstinence is the Biblical standard.
Therefore, such passages should not be interpreted to allow church leaders to drink alcoholic beverages in moderation. In Paul’s day, wine was one of the safest liquids to drink. At that time, people often suffered from parasites and other health ailments because of drinking contaminated water. Wine was a mixed drink with several parts of it water, and therefore different from the wine consumed today. The Greeks, the Jews, and the early church fathers left no doubt that “wine” meant wine mixed with water (Robert H. Stein, “Wine Drinking in New Testament Times,” Christianity Today, June 20, 1975, pp. 9-11). No longer is drinking water a health problem in much of the world, especially in developed countries. In America today, there is no need for alcoholic beverages to be used for health purposes. In ancient times, the drinking of wine was a safety measure.
Another argument against moderate drinking and for total abstinence is that the New Testament calls Christians to sobriety (napho 1 Thess. 5:1-11; 2 Tim. 4:5; 1 Pet. 1:13; 4:7) and
temperance (naphalios, 1 Tim. 3:2, 11; Titus 2:2). (Otto Baurfeind, napho, naphalios, enapho, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. 4, trans. by Geoffrey Bromiley). Though these passages do not refer only to alcohol as causing impairment, they certainly include it.
Paul’s advice does not justify social or recreational drinking. Frequently, the Bible calls believers to a lifestyle contrary to the ungodly and undisciplined culture (cf. Luke 21:34-36; Rom. 13:12- 14; Gal. 5:19-24). We should remember that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach (1 Tim. 5:23). This advice Paul gave could well indicate that Timothy practiced total abstinence. If Timothy drank wine, even in moderation, there would have been no need for Paul to instruct him to use some wine for health purposes. It should not be forgotten that in Bible times, medicines were very rare and few medical aids were available to treat human ailments. Since wine was readily available, it is understandable why it was used for medicine. In the first century, the alcohol content of wine was typically about two to six percent. Today, alcoholic drinks are far more potent (A.R.S. Kennedy, “Wine and Strong Drink,” Dictionary of the Bible). Even so, one could overdo the drinking of diluted wine, as some of the Biblical characters likely did (Gen. 9:20-27; 19:30-38).
Jesus and Strong Drink
On one occasion Jesus contrasted Himself with John the Baptist. He said, “For John came neither eating nor drinking and they (the Pharisees) say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard’” (Matt.
11:18-19). He did not offer an apology for His behavior. He had done nothing for which to apologize.
When one hears the use of alcohol discussed, reference is usually made to Jesus’ miracle of turning water into wine at Cana (John 2:1-11). Does this miracle indicate that Jesus approved of the consumption of alcohol? Before we reach a conclusion, we need to look at the features of this event from several angles:
- We cannot be certain that what Jesus created had alcoholic content. The headmaster of the feast was impressed with what Jesus produced, declaring, “Every man serves the good wine first and when men have drunk freely, then that which is poorer; but you have kept the good wine until now” (2:10). His comment was probably on how good the wine tasted, that is, its quality, not on the alcoholic content.
- The primary purpose of the miracle was to manifest Jesus’ glory (v. 11). To say that the Son of God showed forth his glory by producing gallons of intoxicating wine seems to gofar off base. The miracle manifested Christ’s sovereignty over the natural world and his power to transform the lives of people.
- The focus of the miracle was on its spiritual significance, not on the wine. John described it as a “sign” which drew attention to the saving power of Jesus (2:11) and indicated that there was much more to the miracle than to provide the wedding guests with something to drink.
- John presents the wedding as a sober event in tone, not telling what happened after Jesus did the miracle. The account closes without any hint that the wedding feast turned into a drunken spree.
- There is no indication that Jesus drank any of the wine produced by the miracle. Jesus knew well the teaching of the Old Testament on strong drink (Prov. 23:29-35; Hab. 2:15; Amos 2:8, 12; 4:1).
There is no proof that Jesus ever drank alcohol. Sound interpretation of Holy Scripture avoids promoting a practice based on silence.
Making the Decision for Total Abstinence
Because of the effects of drinking alcoholic beverages, the Bible is against drinking alcohol (Prov. 23:29-35). In fact, in the New Testament there appears to be a clear movement toward the rejection of the use of alcohol and for total abstinence. Such a movement is known as the “Biblical process.” For example, in the New Testament we can see the significance of the Biblical process in reference to the actual drink used in the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus instituted the Supper, he did not use the term “wine” (oinos). Rather he spoke of “the fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26:26-27; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:17-20). Furthermore, Paul speaks of “the cup” when referring to the beverage used in the Supper (1 Cor. 10:16, 21; 11:23-28). The point is, it is very significant that there is no reference in Scripture to wine in connection with the Lord’s Supper. Does this suggest something about Jesus’ and Paul’s attitude regarding strong drink?
In light of the teaching of the Bible, here are four compelling Biblical principles for Christians to abstain from all alcoholic beverages.
- The principle of Christ’s lordship (1 Cor. 6:20). Christians are free, but not free to do whatever they want. They belong to Christ and should put forth every effort to honor His lordship in their
- The principle of edifying others. Paul’s advice is “Let all things be done for edification” (1 Cor. 14:26; cf. 10:23). Christians are to avoid any behavior (including drinking) that influences others to engage in activities that may be to their spiritual and physical detriment.
- The principle of the proper treatment of the body. The Christian’s body is the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19-20). Whatever Christians do against their bodies affects the residence of the Holy Spirit and God’s creative masterpiece. The body is sacred and is destined for resurrection (1 Cor. 6:13ff.).
Some argue that there are health benefits in wine. Researchers from Harvard Medical School report that wine has anti-aging proprieties; but rather than being from the alcoholic content, the anti-aging proprieties are the resveratrol in the red skins of the grapes (www.google.com/health+benefits+of=wine+). Moreover, medical authorities remind us that alcohol has significant adverse health effects.
- The principle of doing all to God’s glory. Paul says,“Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Cor.10:31). Whatever activity a Christian engages in—all must be to God’s glory. There is no glory for God in the pursuit of pleasure that has no regard for the detrimental influence it has on others and oneself. It is inconceivable that God approves of the use of alcohol. Living for the glory of God includes the practice of total
Conclusion
Even if the Bible were to have said nothing against drinking, the tremendous toll the use of strong drink has taken on people is a clear indication that abstinence is the only risk-free practice. Christians have a moral responsibility to be examples in lifestyle and to consider how they can best serve and edify others. For us as believers, the most important argument against drinking should be, “What does the Lord say?” According to the Bible, God will hold all Christians responsible for their behavior (Rom. 14:12; 1 Cor. 3:12-13; 2 Cor. 5:10). Therefore, what really counts is what God thinks about our behavior.
We, the credentialed ministers and lay members of the Church of God, must follow Biblical teaching and not consume beer, wine, liquor, or any alcoholic beverage. It is imperative that we practice total abstinence for the sake of others, for the sake of the Gospel, for the sake of ourselves, and for the sake of God’s glory. For these reasons and others, the Church of God came together in the 1948 General Assembly and, guided by the sole authority the Bible, that body of believers adopted the Statements of Faith, reaffirming its earlier stand on the doctrine of total abstinence from alcohol. The Church of God stands against the use of all alcoholic beverages with the prayer that the behavior of God’s people will aid the Church of God in doing its part in finishing the Great Commission.
Additional Readings
Arrington, French L. “The Dangers of Strong Drink,” Issues in Contemporary Pentecostalism,
Cleveland: Pathway Press, 2012.
Fingarette, Herbert. Heavy Drinking: the Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease, Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1988.
Jaeggli, Randy. Christians and Alcohol: A Scripture Case for Abstinence, Greenville, South Carolina: Bob Jones University Press, 2014.
Shaw, Mark. The Heart of Addiction: A Biblical Perspective, ISBN-13: 9781885904683,
www.amazon.com, 2008
―French L. Arrington
Emanuel Rodriguez Without further adieu I give you DR. FRENCH L. ARRINGTON Pass him and you are more than welcome to debate me on the topic
I agree with your view on total abstinence for Christians !!!
Troy I was born and raised COG, my grandfather was a pioneer Pastor in the COG….they were founded by a Methodist and a Baptist….in the Methodist tradition they have always been abstainers this is not news.
As always they refer to New Wine or watered down wine which has no actual historical basis, even if it did exist it still had alcohol content at least much like modern day beer which in most cases is only 4% to 5% alcohol which still means early christians were not abstainers.
I am not pro alcohol, I am in no way encouraging anyone to do something in violation of their conscience.
I am saying please don’t insult my intelligence when all of history says different than a modern man made doctrine that is distinctly regional in its application (US and even more so a Southern US thing). God is a worldwide God and holiness is not a regional standard.
The problem with any thing that the COG or anyone else puts out on alcohol is that they always and only give extreme examples of drunken out of control behavior. We all agree the Bible is clear on drunkeness and self control….no one is debating that.
But to infer somehow that a husband and wife who share a glass of wine with dinner is somehow unholy or sinful is simply ludacris and extreme in the other direction.
The bible teaches moderation and self control in any and all things that are allowed under Christian liberty and not strictly prohibited by scripture.
Drunkeness is wrong becuase of the loss of self control which leads to all of the other abusive sins associated with alcohol abuse.
I personally do not drink but I do agree with you..
My thought are that we as Christians need to be a shining example unto others.
If we like to keep a case of beer on hand and have a fellow Christian come by that isn’t very learned in scripture, then it is better to keep the beer out of view.
The Bible has said not to give place to the devil, and this brother who is week in the faith could take it the wrong way..
Eric Phillips Why would you feel that this article by DR. FRENCH L. ARRINGTON insults your intelligence ? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-french-l-arrington-the-bible-and-alcoholic-beverages-beer-wine-liquors-and-total-abstinence/
He states he can’t say whether or not the water Jesus turned to wine had alcohol content or not….but goes onto hypothesize that it did not while later admitting it could.
He admits that new testament believers drank what he calls water downed wine.
He explains they drank wine as an alternative to the dirty contaminated water of that day and that he estimates based on some other guys theory an alcohol content of 4% to 6% or roughly the same as a modern beer.
The insulting part is he tells us they drink wine to avoid contaminated water, only to tell us they take this same filthy water and pour it into good wine 4 parts pond scum to 1 part wine.
To believe that I would either have to believe they were some pretty stupid people to contaminate their alternative drink or I would have to be stupid to believe that they were that dumb.
And lastly show me any other thing that was not a sin in the NT, something that was permissable, that is now a sin like alcohol is made out to be? And what was the date when it changed from being ok, to your going to hell now for drinking it?
Ex causes
Melvin Harter What does your organization’s Practical Commitments require from ministers and members per Dr. Arrington’s exegesis?
It is an historical fact that the Christian church has used alcohol in the Lord supper until the abstinence movement. Therefore, I would suggest that it is more holy to use alcoholic wine then grape juice, both biblically and his historically. The introduction of novel Doctrines does not make them more correct nor more holy
Let me first say that I find it is a total disgrace to the CoG (Cleveland, TN) for such a subject to be mentioned, let alone for Dr French Arrington to have to write such a statement. I also noticed that even though this particular writing was in recent days (February 2018), I did notice that an earlier writing by Dr Arrington was posted in 2012, which suggests to me that this subject must have been discussed even then. I studied Greek 2 under Dr Arrington at Lee College (University) in the early 1970s. Dr Arrington is an outstanding Professor and his writings can be totally relied upon.
Now why is alcoholism a discussion issue today? Have you ever thought about that? I contend there are two definite factors that bring about this type of a discussion: (1) the international arm of the CoG; and, (2) the neglect of the Doctrine of Sanctification being taught at Lee College (University).
When the CoG expanded primarily into Europe, having wine with their dinner was a common factor with the European Christians. Instead of the CoG contending against such, they begin to make the argument of acceptance and were influenced by our European brethren.
And secondly, at Lee College, designated classes were conducted on subjects such as (1) Soteriology (Doctrine/Study of Salvation) and (2) Pneumatology (Doctrine/Study of the Holy Spirit). However, there was not even one course offered on the Doctrine of Sanctification. I recall the Doctrine of Sanctification was only brought up in Dr John Sims’ class, Dr Hollis Gause’s Systematic Theology class and in Dr French Arrington’s Greek 2 classes, particularly as it related to our Exegetical Studies. So in essence, the Doctrine of Sanctification was never fully emphasized in our studies at Lee College. I believe it is due to these two factors as to why there is discussion for acceptance of social drink in the CoG.
I would encourage every CoG minister & layman to listen to a sermon entitled SOCIAL SINS by CoG minister Dr Ray H Hughes, Sr, a video that I posted on YouTube.
Influenced by our European brethren who founded most of Christianity’s modern churches and contended for Christ and the church before America even existed! But yes your right we need to explain a thing or two to them about church history (there history)! I’m reminded of that old hymn “The Church of God is right hallelujah praise the lamb!” Lol
Dr. Hughes was a great man, not infallible however. I went to Lee myself with some of his grandkids…pretty sure the amount of trouble they stayed in…. they never listened to Papaw lol
But Bro Eric Phillips, America was basically founded by those who sought religious freedom from the religious restraints in Europe.
Yes and Melvin Harter I guess your gonna tell me the pilgrims who came here drank fresh water on the trip over across the Atlantic? This is my point to agree with you I would have to suspend logic.
Eric Phillips then why did you preach it?
Because it’s what I was indoctrinated with my entire life and I never questioned it until I started studying on my own.
I think you have lost your way my brother. You need to return to the old paths again.
Alcoholic has ruin many family killed people in my eyes it.s evil
Obesity has killed more people than Alcohol. Why are we not preaching Gluttony. This is Legalism at its finest
Vickie Embry So true my sister. It has destroyed many families & lives and sent millions of souls to a devil’s hell. So many in the Church have been deceived into thinking social drinking is okay. We need voices to cry out against such a damnable Doctrine that is being taught in many churches by worldly ministers. God bless you Sister Embry.
Yes too many feel good church I know one church they had a super bowl party an serve beer what a shame I feel sorry for the preacher needs to teach the Bible
Vickie Embry GOD HELP US.
I’m glad in old fashion
So you say that the Bible expressively speaks against alchol of any kind is that correct? Can you show scriptures to back that up? Does the bible not speak against drinking to the point of drunkeness? If you are not drinking alchol there is no need to worry about drunkeness is there?. The point is most people do not stop with one drink they over inbibe. Romans 13:13 in the ESV puts it like this. Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. It puts it right up thre with adultry and sexual imorality does it not? All these are sin and should not be partaken of. However no where does it say the drinks spoken about were not alcholic quite the contrary, It says don’t over indulge. some things in the bible are spoken about specifically as sin like adultry, and pre marital sex etc. I do not social drink do you? When Jesus turned the water into wine was the translation for the word there for wine the same word used for alcholic drinks? Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This is used often to say drinking is a sin, again it is not the 1 drink it is the drunkeness that is the sin. Again befoe God can you say you have never had an alcholic drink?
I liked Dr.Arrington’s statement. Guess the question was more of how your organizations practical commitments propose to deal with ministers or members who drink (socially) Ed Brewer
I would suggest that the biblical way of dealing with presbyters who socially drink is to make sure that they are not partying and not getting drunk.
I should change that to exhort as opposed to make sure… I’m not there daddy
How does an organization deal with social drinkers who are in their ministry or lay members of their church? That’s a simple answer. You EXCOMMUNICATE them.
Oops … There goes Jesus
Randal W Deese Not true my brother
Melvin Harter We will have to disagree on this one brother
Disagree or not my brother, but show one scripture where Jesus sponsored a party where liquor was promoted. There are none. Regarding the Marriage in Cana, there is a distinct difference between NEW WINE & OLD WINE. And I do not believe the scripture will contend that Jesus turned water into OLD WINE.
Melvin Harter
Next you’ll try to convince me that they didn’t get drunk on communion wine in first Corinthians chapter 11
That alone shows that communion wine was alcoholic….
And another is drunken – The word used here (μεθύω methuō) means properly to become inebriated, or intoxicated; and there is no reason for understanding it here in any other sense.
No, Brother Randal W Deese, you failed to read verses 18-19. There were divisions and heresies in the Corinthian Church. Have you ever considered that drunkenness in vs 21 may be a heresy?
Melvin Harter
They were drunk because they drank too much communion wine. Read the Greek text
There were divisions & heresies. Don’t you think it may have been somewhat connected to Communion?
Melvin Harter
“haireseis” a choosing, taking sides, holding views of one party, heresy (our word). “Heresy is theoretical schism, schism practical heresy.” Cf. Tit 3:10; 2Pe 2:1. In Paul only here and Gal 5:20.
That is in direct violation to Romans 14. You do not judge them. If they aren’t given to much wine and they don’t get drunk, you should not condemn them.
Pentecostals should abstain from dumping their legalism on unbelievers and new converts,too.
Melvin Harter If there were a drinking heresie, then it would have been a faction dedicated to drinking or that separated from others based on drinking. I don’t see any evidence of that happening in I Corinthians.
But could a church that excommunicates believers who drink like Jesus drank (non-sinfully), as you would recommend, be creating a heresy by their divisive behavior?
SOCIAL SINS by CoG minister Dr Ray H Hughes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd7kC7QXFDs
Simply put, everyone who drinks alcoholic beverages and liquor GO TO HELL.
Lol cause I’m Melvin Harter and I said so!
I thought God was the judge and the only one who could pronounce judgement and eternal damnation?
You having a fit if rage is not really a way to convince others to look seriously at you arguement when come off like the opening act at a WWE event.
Eric Phillips not because I said so, but because God says so. Isaiah says for us to Lift up our voice like a trumpet. Show my people their sin.
But he did not call you to call things sinful, wine in moderation, that he himself did not deem sinful….so yes it is you saying so….you cannot show one verse that backs up what you are saying above, not one that says anyone who has a drink goes to hell.
But I can show you what the Bible says about adding to or taking away from his word…to not even add or delete a dot on an I…your adding entire thoughts…dangerous ground.
Lastly “showing them there sin” and passing judgement as to decide who will condemend to hell are two different things.
Judgement is the Lords.
Acts 10:13-15
Where do preachers go who make up doctrine contrary to the Bible and condemn other believers to Hell?
Jesus drank. You can’t be holier to Jesus by holding to a man-made standard that He did not adhere to.
Your post typifies what is wrong with some streams of Pentecostalism and Holiness type teaching, the self-righteous, holier-than-thou man-made legalism aspect of it. Let’s get back to the Bible. Bible over tradition, even Pentecostal tradition.
That kind of preaching ‘aint holy. God has the right to condemn men to Hell. Preachers don’t have the right to condemn men to Hell for not living up to their man-made standards.
Melvin Harter…when the disciples came out of the Upper Room….tell me why they needed to explain that they were “not drunk with wine as you suppose”?
If they were such notorious teetotalers explain the need for that exclaimation?
Bro Eric Phillips, why would you require an explanation when the scriptures are plainly stated? It was not the believers who were stating the 120 were drunk. Peter did not quote from the book of Joel to the saints. Just because the saints were baptized in the Holy Ghost and gave an appearance of being drunk on alcohol did not and even today does not mean they actually consumed alcohol. So how do you state they were teetotalers? Do not confuse the 120 on the Day of Pentecost with the total CoG at Corinth.
Acts 2:1 -16 …. I am not confused and you did not answer my question …. if they never drank why caveat the statement with seeing it is only the 3rd hour of the morning or 9 AM. If they never drank why add that? Time of day would not matter for someone who abstained 100% correct?
Not only not drunk with wine as you suppose….but at this hour of the morning…infering you may find them festive later in the evening and not think it strange.
Wine is a mocker.
It’s funny to me how someone can take a Scripture that clearly says they do not drink, and twist it to they may drink
Good greif I did not twist anything, and as usual you have not answered any of my questions.
Funny to me for a guy who likes to act like he has all the answers.
I simply ask again why announce your not drunk with wine this early in the morning?
Eric I was actually responding to bro Melvin but you are welcome to jump in with any comment you may offer on the original Greek of this verse. On another note, you seem to be taking this discussion against drinking way too personal. You probably have a personal reasons to do that and are welcome to share them. But please keep in mind we are all here to discuss theology not personal issues Thanks
Lol Troy you make me laugh, thank you for the humor.
Can one imagine that God would encourage an alcoholic beverage. Oh my! The ignored tithe passage:
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [your tithe. See vs 1] or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or FOR WINE, or FOR STRONG DRINK, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Deu 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
Every alcoholic started with his first drink.
Every adulterer started with his verse sexual experience. Ok. So!
There is a vast difference between the two.
We are commanded to “shun the very appearance of evil.”
From a Biblical perspective, alcohol isn’t evil. God even encouraged it in the verses above – from His Holy, Pure and Righteous Law.
Wrong again my brother.
Melvin Harter
Explain the verses I quoted above. Your controversy is not with me, but Scripture.
Wine is not evil. God gave oil to make men’s face shine, and wine to make men’s heart merry, like the Bible says.
Drinking wine in moderation is evil to men who have been pre-programmed to judge others by legalism in their church tradition.
Let not your good be evil spoken of.
That assumes wine is evil, which contradicts scripture.
Eric Phillips not true
The drinking of alcohol will damn your soul to hell.
Why do you keep damning Jesus to hell? John the Baptist did not drink wine (oinos in the Greek) or any other form of alcohol because it was prophesied that he wouldn’t (Luke 1:15). However, Jesus Christ did drink oinos (wine) (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34). Jesus did not preach against the use of wine; instead he did like most other Jews of his day.
Randal W Deese , did you read Dr Arrington’s Report? Wine was not the same as it is today. And why would Jesus promote the drinking of wine when in doing so, sends you to HELL
You can in no way prove that and his report is not scripture.
He is a fine man, but his article stretches to prove his point not to actually give an accurate historical account.
Melvin Harter sure wants somebody to go to hell over this subject
I CORINTHIANS 6:10, “Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor DRUNKARDS, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” If one does not inherit the kingdom of God, then the conclusion is, he is in HELL.
Melvin Harter….yep Drunkards…not drinkers…you know like….gluttons…. not eaters!
We ALL AGREE DRUNKENESS IS SINFUL BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO!
WE DON’T AGREE THAT A DRINK OR DRINKING IN MODERATION LIKE IS REPLETE THROUGHOUT BOTH THE OT AND NT IS SINFUL….BECAUSE IT IS NOT DRUNKENESS AND THE BIBLE DOES NOT CALL IT SIN.
Good grief you need to spend a little time studying etymology…words and there meanings matter.
If you never take the first drink of alcohol, you will have nothing to worry about. But if you take the first drink, it will lead you deeper into sin. There are many scriptures to address total abstinence. Only those unsanctified souls promote social drink. A saint of God will have no desire to even take one drink of liquor.
Melvin Harter Baloney.
Randal W Deese , Say what you want. But what if you are wrong?
Melvin Harter
What if you are guilty adding to the Word of God? Serious business my friend…
Randal W Deese you must not have been a Church of God minister.
Melvin Harter Having a glass of wine and being a drunkard aren’t the same thing.
Do you damn people for having some wine mixed with water?
Melvin Harter
In the context of this passage, what did the Son of Man drink?
Luke 7
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
John did not drink WINE. The Son of Man came drinking. The Son of man drank ______?
Do you ever encounter a Baptist who believes that if someone repeats a prayer after a preacher, he can go out and fornicate and kill people and he’s guaranteed a place in heaven? Do you ever think how can someone be so steeped in tradition as to hold to it even when you show him verses to the contrary?
Have you ever stopped to think what your beliefs about alcohol, even the extreme of damning people for drinking a little of it, are based on? It isn’t the Bible.
I agree
If someone wants to abstain, that’s fine. I’d say there are two problems with it– abstaining from the Lord’s Supper is undesirable, certainly if you do it all the time. Secondly, Paul opposed the idea of Timothy engaging in total abstinence, apparently. He wanted him to drink a little wine for his stomach’s sake.
Still, I find this article to have some logical problems. He says, “He instructs the church leaders, whether pastors (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7) or deacons (1 Tim. 3:8,) regarding the consumption of alcohol to be “blameless,” strongly implying total abstinence is the Biblical standard.”
Look at I Timothy 3:8. It contradicts his conclusion. Look up that verse in the Greek. How can you get total abstinence out of a command that deacons not be given to much wine? If they are not to be given to much wine, they can drink some.
And some people do drink dilluted wine. I hear farmers in the field in Italy drink a bit of wine with lots of water. I’ve also read the interpretation that ‘strong drink’ is undilluted wine.
If you grew up in a Methodist-and-temperance-movement-influenced religion, like Pentecostals or Southern Baptist, maybe some mild drinking would be considered a reproach. But it is not from a Biblical perspective.
Jesus drank wine and gave the apostles wine and told them to drink it. So how can we be holy by looking down our noses on people Who did what Jesus did. Isn’t the ‘holier-than-thou’ condemning attitude that a lot of Pentecostals have toward those who drink like Jesus drank (non-sinfully and in moderation) a problem that pastors need to address? Instead of writing articles in favor of teetotalalism, which we know is not required in scripture, why not also address the issue of legalistic snobby false holiness that consists of adhering to manmade standards (e.g. ‘Taste not’) that God does not require, while looking judgmentally down on those who do not adhere to them.
Even John Wesley did not outright condemn the drinking of wine in moderation. He preached against the dangers of distilled liquors. Drunks addicted to gin were an issue in his day, and the preaching evolved to condemning drinking wine and beer in moderation.
I was raised not drinking wine, beer, etc. I’ve probably drunk much less alcohol (mainly as cough medicine or residual amounts in Japanese or Italian food) than most preachers I’ve encountered who are opposed to alcohol. Other than cough medicine and small amounts in food cooked with wine, about two years ago, I had maybe an 8th of a glass of red wine on a plan two years ago when I had a throat infection forming in my throat while flying to China for a job interview process that required a presentation and a demo class. It really helped my throat a lot. I’ve never been drunk or tipsy from drinking.
I say that as a non-drinker, because the legalistic condemning type of Pentecostal likes to respond to reasonable posts on the topic of drinking by accusing the poster of being a drunk, being against holiness.
You can’t be holier than Jesus.
We are commanded not to even have fellowship with drunkards – I Corinthians 5:11.
Romans 14 gives us some wisdom on this:
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Paul applies his teaching to drinking wine later in the chapter. Those who are opposed to drinking wine should take this advise as well. The should not judge those who drink in moderation, and give thanks to God.
I don’t know if there were any teetotalers in Paul’s day who’d invented a doctrine of it. Timothy may have been completely abstaining for whatever reason, and Paul did not agree with that. Paul could have been a temporary teetotaler if he had a Nazarite vow, but from grapes, grape juice, and raisins also. I don’t think the post-Wesley doctrine existed then. There may have been some gnostic type groups or ascetics of different types who wanted to abstain from certain foods to be holy.
My guess would be Paul’s reference to drinking wine might have had something to do with the fear that some of the wine sold in the marketplace had been poured out as a libation to a false god before being sold. Either that or it could have been some sort of kosher issue.
Romans 14 speaks specifically to eating (or not eating) sacrifice Has nothing to do with social drinking. It is a far stretch by any exegetical rule. It also insults people who dont drink as weak in the faith which is nowhere close to what Paul was talking about BTW as a I understand Melvin Harter properly any member of the organization called Church of God is NOT allowed to drink per their Practical Commitments. Therefore, no one who drinks wine, beer, stronger drink can hold membership or claim any association with the Church of God. Is this well understood? Ed Brewer
It is a serious stretch of the imagination and an anachronistic fallacy to teach that social drinking was not the norm in Biblical days. They all drank wine as much as water at every social gathering.
Dont think Jesus was in anachronistic fallacy when he said in Matthew 26:29
I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Troy Day I don’t get your point about anachronistic fallacy. He drank the fruit of the vine then. The disciples were to continue drinking it.
Troy Day You didn’t make any sense.
I simply quoted what Jesus said – what does not make sense to you in the Words of Jesus?
Troy Day When did Jesus say ‘anachronistic fallacy’. That part didn’t make sense.
The anachronistic fallacy would be to assume that first century Jews or Christians held to 19th century Holiness movement beliefs against consumption of any alcoholic beverage.
That was the term used by Randal W Deese BTW Link you are getting sidetracked again – Are you yourself a Church of God member who drinks beer, wine, stronger drink?
Troy Day I haven’t claimed I am a part of the Cleveland denomination, but I don’t know if GBI has any teetotaler rules at the denominational level. I’d be a bit surprised if they did. When I went to one in the 1990’s. someone had brought back some real wine from Israel in one of the congregations and they’d mix it into the communion wine.
I would suspect GPDI to be more likely to have such rules, and they are with Foursquare now.
Troy Day seems to have a strange love affair with the Practical Commitments of the COG.
Notice these are extra and above the Doctrinal Commitments.
If you excommunicate any and everyone who doesn’t follow in full the Practical Commitments of the COG you would have to shut many churches and most Pastors would lose their credentials.
All non-tithers OUT!
Those who don’t submit to the authority placed over them in the Lord OUT!
If you read under Spiritual Example and the under Good Stewards it even tells us how to spend our time….they may deem our debate as a waste of time! OUT! It speaks out against to much leisure time OUT!
It talks about the wise use of money! All the Preachers who built buildings they couldn’t fill or pay for, all the state offices that just about went under a few years ago and the Int’l Leaders who had to reorganize to keep the COG from Bankruptcy OUT!
I could go on and on and on ad homimem since Troy seems to want to kick anyone he can out of the COG and Melvin wants to send them all to hell!
Only after bro Melvin mentioned them I connected them to Link strange claims he is/was cog member Are you a cog member too??? I am not that familiar with the booklet
http://www.churchofgod.org/practical-commitments
Troy Day when did I ever make such a claim? I spent about a year attending COGs in high school bit I spent several years in the A/G. I was an ‘aktivis’ at a GBI in Indonesia for about a year and I have preached in GBIs. I never applied for membership in a US CoG (Cleveland). My story hasn’t changed.
well any time you made it I countered that you are not cog or ag but some strange bird sort – you always got upset; now it turns its true our AG dont allow drinking either
I hate fake holiness. When anyone adds rules to their faith as proof of purity that Scripture does not firmly teach, it is the opposite of true holiness.
Troy Day So what? The Son of Man came eating and drinking.
Randal Orthodoxy has plenty of rules on dressing 🙂 especially for the priests – how did you chose your gown colors ? Nothing Link – just that you are not Pentecostal that’s all I rest my case
Troy Day but… The emphasis is quite different. Every church has rules, but extra rules to become holy…hmmm
Troy Day I didn’t know Pentecostalism is defined by you? Please give me your definition of a true Pentecostal?
The emphasis is always on holiness. Remember the guy who lived on top of a pillar ?
Troy Day Ha ha ha ha
Your appointment be valid if every person was required to live on top of the pillar… If you think about these things a little deeper
Not familiar with the pillar analogy. Troy Day are you more concerned with preserving tradition or with the truth of the word of God.
You can’t be holier than Jesus.
Troy Day Not drinking doesn’t make someone weak in faith. If someone thinks all drinking of alcohol in sin, yes he is weak in faith in that area.
Principles of conscience extended beyond issue of meat offered to idols. Corinthians is clear that is the weak conscience issue. In this passage, we have to guess. It could have had to do with kashrut or something else entirely.
At least Christians who thought mystery meat from the market was unholy had some kind of Biblical or theological basis for their belief. Even the article you quote cites a verse reference that allows drinking, and tries to spin an article outright. ‘Not given to much wine’ implies drinking a little is allowed.
Also, I read an article that pointed out the lack of scientific evidence that alcohol in the drinking water killed parasites. It seems reasonable, but I don’t know if there is any evidence for it, much less the idea that this was the reason they drank back then. There could be health benefits for the stomach other than antiseptic properties
Link Hudson Does drinking wine, beer, stronger drink make one not a member of the Church of God? Melvin Harter
No, of course not. The members of ‘the church of God which is at Corinth’ had ‘real wine’ for what was supposed to be the Lord’s Supper. Paul doesn’t condemn that. He does comment on their drunkenness.
Wine had to be fully fermented to be kosher for Passover. They drank wine in Matthew 26. In Matthew 23, Jesus had said the scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses seat and to do what they ‘bid you observe.’
The Pharisees had them drinking wine that was completely fermented so all the yeast in the wine would die and they could slough it off the top. Grape juice could have yeast in it that hadn’t all died off yet, so it wasn’t kosher.
Link Hudson Seems to me you are not even Church of God after all. It may do you well to do some research how the NT uses words about wine and drinking around Jesus. You will note quickly that NT writers use the words cup, fruit of the vine and so one. Jesus said This cup – no Gospel writer dared argue what was in it. The fruit of the vine means exactly that not a strong drink like ye suppose. Same goes for Acts 2, Timothy and so on. French Arrington explains it much better than I can
BOTTOM LINE: People drink cause they want to drink (and use the Bible as an excuse) If you have a drinking addiction to the point that you need the Bible to justify it, you should look for professional help
Troy Day Those who try to preach teetotalism just have made up doctrine without a leg to stand on Biblically. The reason the Bible can be an ‘excuse’ to drink is that there are plenty of examples of righteous people drinking wine, etc. and verses that indicate that it is allowed. There are warnings against excess.
And like I said, I am a non-drinker with the exceptions (e.g. cough syrup, residue in shrimp scampi or Japanese noodles), though legalistic Pentecostals who don’t have any scripture to back up what they say often like to accuse those who do not agree of having a drinking problem or insinuate it.
The Gospels do not explicitly say what was in the cup, but Jews drank cups of fully fermented wine for Passover. I thought you folks who have degrees in theology learned about all that history stuff.
Troy Day I am part of the church of God in the Bible. As far as the Cleveland denomination goes, I didn’t say I am a part of that. Maybe you are getting us posters mixed up. I’ve attended regularly a couple of them in the past if you count GBIs in Indonesia.
We use real wine in the Lords Supper as it has been done for 2000 years.
Luke 7:33-34
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’
The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ (ESV)
Troy Day and Melvin Harter Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. What was He drinking in this context?
Grape juice argument began during abstinence movement. It is fraught with historical misinformation so as to justify it’s novelity in the history of His Church!!
If I had time I would respond to every point Dr French has brought up. … In fact, I need to go… Blessings
Randal Grape juice argument began during abstinence movement in America, you know? There are other countries in the world You really need to broaden your scope being orthodox and all
Troy Day You are the one who holds to a position created in America that is pretty much unique to America and maybe a few places affected by American missionaries. Some Presbyterian missionaries to South Korea apparently taught teetotalism. Strangely enough, Yoido Full Gospel seemed to be serving ‘real wine’ for communion when I visited in the 1990’s.
Link To be honest I am not surprised to learn that you are not Church of God like you’ve claimed Your amalgamation seems to be somewhat cultural but certainly not theological or practical
Troy Day, I have been consistent with my claims. I have attended COG and GBI (Indonesian version of COG) in the past, and I haved preached in GBIs on occasion.
Why do I get the sense that denominational affiliation seems to be more important to you than whether your ideas are Biblical?
Denominational affiliation is somewhat important maybe not as important as biblical theology but if affiliation someone stresses dissipate in the same Logistics of worship for example Church of God of the USA and Church of God in Mexico are culturally different but we still participate in the same logistical worship values
Link What does your Church of God practical commitments say about drinking strong drinks and social drinking by members?
Troy Day I’ve heard they are against it. If Jesus did not abide by a practical commitment, it should be called into question.
The same could be said about some of the teachings of the Apostles the apostles spoke on areas of what Jesus never spoke of this was to establish Unity we could say that some of the teachings of the Apostles could be practical commitments for the local church
Are you equating practical commitments ith the epistles. Why not just accept RCC traditions as binding?
Cuz Roman Catholic traditions are not found in Scripture
Angel Ruiz and that is an issue with the practical commitments too.
Yes they are…
Saying a Christian must abstain from all alcoholic beverages is not Biblical. Jesus told tge disciples to Drink ye all of it. Tea is a mood altering substance.
cog holds it as a matter of membership, which you seem not to hold or if you do is in some strange way of social drinking
Jesus in 20 AD would not have met the qualifications for membership in the COG (Cleveland), would He?
Troy Day I haven’t heard of such requirements around here. Alcohol is not as much a part of the culture, either. But it doesn’t effect me anyway. Btw, as I pointed out, I am not a ‘social drinker.’ Alcoholic beverages stink. I just don’t condemn people for drinking in moderation like Jesus did. I would drink communion wine if it were ‘real wine’ as opposed to grape juice.
That makes sense for organization that is just amalgamated but not really part of larger denomination Good point
It was the largest national conference the last I heard.
φαρμακεία is pharmakia and translated withcraft in the new testament. Pharmakia means drugs and booze. I’ll often hear a man call it “self medicating.” This includes drinking and weed and dope. Things like this altar a man’s personality. Clouds his judgment, corrupts the morals of a man and pulls down his will.
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,…”
— Galatians 5:19,20
Pharmakia is used again in Revelations
“Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
— Revelation 9:12
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
— Revelation 21:8
Pharmakia means ‘drugs and booze’. That’s a pretty huge leap. It’s translated witchcraft. If it has something to do with potions, that doesn’t mean it refers to the drinking of wine, which is mentioned many times in the Bible. Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine. Was he telling him to engage in a little ‘pharmakia’?
A little wine for his stomach is not going change his personality. But even a couple of beers can do that. Link Hudson
They used to mix wine down with water in ancient times. Shakespeare even mentions the practice.
Yes I’ve heard. It’s in the Bible too. I think that would dilute it. Especially if it’s homemade wine. It would gardly be an alcoholic beverage at all.
Troy Day On some level, you’ve got to realize it doesn’t make any sense to read teetotalerism into the Bible.
Do you think the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a Welch’s grape juice bibber?
I hear the Jewish authorities allowed mixing Passover wine down to a certain ration. I think it was 5 to1 or 6 to 1. Children drank during the meals as well.
The mix drink is just one of many theories out there that people use to justify their love for drinking. The Bible NO where even implies Jesus Himself drunk mixed drink
Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking.
What other vines did Jews drink the fruit of.
Do you really think this is over a glass of wine? It’s not even over the scriptures. It’s about men and their sin. People want their sin and so called liberty. Who has one glass of wine. Nobody I know.
Joseph D. Absher I was reading the other day that about half of American drinking-occasions lead to drunkenness while it is like 1 out of 10 for Europeans. It’s a cultural thing, maybe even something spurred on a bit by prohibition.
I’m not into drinking wine or beer, but I am sure you can find people who might drink one craft beer with dinner or one glass of wine.
That’s good blame the law. That’s a hot one
Joseph D. Absher The issue here is men making up doctrine. Melvin Harter even said social drinkers go to Hell. Men have no right to damn Christians God hasn’t damned. That’s false doctrine, and it goes against the teaching of scripture about judging, e.g. Romans 14.
So if you’re for drinking it’s a crusade against judging?
Joseph D. Absher I’m against false doctrine and legalism. I grew up not drinking. I am not a ‘social drinker.’ I’ll drink cough medicine if I need it, and wine in communion if they use ‘real wine’ (which some Pentecostal churches do, btw, in Indonesia and South Korea). I’m not trying to get people to drink.
But it is wrong for Pentecostals to look down their noses at believers who drink in moderation. And it is very wrong to condemn them to Hell for it.
I’m also a bit tired of tradition-generated stupidity. If someone says something stupid from the pulpit, don’t believe it just because it’s from the pulpit or because your papaw and your meemaw’s preacher used to say it. If it’s old timey preaching that doesn’t make it right.
If you can open up the BIble and see the preacher contradicted the Bible, it’s wrong.
So you’re promoting and defending drinking? “In moderation?”
Great point bro Joseph D. Absher Was this the wine is mocker comment you had the other day?
No sir. Do you mean the one the devil for deacon and pervert leading the choir?
Thank you bro Joseph D. Absher
The argument people are making to drink without getting intoxicating
is NOT from the BIBLE
It is liberally borrowed from the Clintons
who spoke pot but did not inhale
People drink because they want to drink
not because the Bible says they can drink wine
If you are delivered from it you dont mess with it no more [period]
Drinking socially shows a deep social psychological disorder
The need to justify it with the Bible is fundamentally wrong theology
Hahaha
1. I use real wine in the Lord’s Supper because it’s an act of holiness
2. I drink wine at home as a reminder of God’s blessing and fruitfulness.
3. As one who was powerful he delivered from alcohol and drug abuse, the Lord has set me free from desire to get high either.
And for the record, I drink alcohol with a dinner about one time in every three months. He who is free is free indeed. I have no desire to ever go back to my pre-conversion days of alcohol and drug abuse.
You are so funny 🙂
Troy Day Thank you.
What does it represent. Success, fellow ship, comfort, status, fun,
Then consider the other uses in the Bible stubbornness, pride. The wrath of God. This might be the one case where I “spiritualize” the Bible. New wine is joy and gladness and cleansing.
In court with a new believer. On a different case a young man was sentenced. Two years in prison. Unsuccessful in drug court. The charge was two overdoses in one day. Thats right he was revived and released and found dead a second time the same day. With heroin and needles. He O.D.’ed behind the wheel. People think overdose happens immediately. It doesn’t. Same with alcohol deaths. It takes time to work it’s way into the system. You can work with a man and they will get drunker even after they have stopped drinking. Sober minded means more than abstinence from drugs and alcohol. It be honest before God and not self deceived.
Randal W Deese Joseph D. Absher IF I MAY cite David Lewayne Porter here just for my friend Dr. Melvin Harter
David Lewayne Porter
11 ago hrs · Harnett, NC, United States ·
“From a ministry friend:
Alcohol-Related Deaths:
An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women)die from alcohol-related causes annually in the United States.
In 2014, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 9,967 deaths (31 percent of overall driving fatalities).
Economic Burden:
In 2010, alcohol misuse cost the United States $249.0 billion.
Three-quarters of the total cost of alcohol misuse is related to binge drinking.
Why aren’t we dealing with this abomination?” [end OF quote]
WE START with getting rid of ToT sipping dipping and tripping preachers FIRST in the church, so we can PREACH the pure Gospel of salvation and holiness without being made fun of by the world where drinking cigs and drugs are long discarded from the social norm
We start in the church and establish NON-drinking standard of holiness there FIRST before consuming ourselves with stats from the world. Look at the Church first – the world will close their own bars and pubs when the Church is on Fire of Revival – it happened before in history you know Alan Smith http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newspring-removes-perry-noble-due-to-alcoholism/
That isn’t in the Bible..hmmmm
drugs are not in the bible ?
Troy Day
Number of new syphilis cases: 74,702 (2015)
Number of new chlamydia cases: 1,526,658 (2015)
Number of new gonorrhea cases: 395,216 (2015)
And what about all the deaths from the same…
We should ban sex because someone might abuse it… Haha
was the next thing I was gonna post for David
The world will close it’s own bars and pubs….
Quoting Troy Day.
Is that why the wheat and tares grow together,
That is why men will grow worse and worse
That is why there will be a GREAT falling away.
Yes we will draw some, but don’t count on the world closing up all our even many of it’s pubs and bars (unless of course you pull a Smith Wigglesworth and personally get the owner saved).
You guys are hilarious
Troy Day Randal W Deese…
Ban sex.
Sex is not the issue. Using it contrary to God’s guidelines is the issue.
So let’s discuss the other THINGS, items, and situations in which the item is not the issue, the over indulgence or use other than God intends is the actual issue.
David Lewayne Porter You proved my point. Thank you
If you think I proved your point you are truly lost Randal W Deese.
There was no point.
It is funny he Troy Day only posted part of the original post.
As normal he twist things to fit his agenda.
David Lewayne Porter
Having alcohol is fine if used in accordance to GODs guidelines.
Having sex is fine if it is done in accordance to GODs guidelines.
Simple, logical and Scriptural.
Both are allowed within perimeters.
Exactly
So Randal W Deese
Your point was different from mine how?
David Lewayne Porter
I didn’t say yours was different
It came across that way.
Here is the entire post, including what Troy Day left out. …
From a ministry friend:
Alcohol-Related Deaths:
An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women)die from alcohol-related causes annually in the United States.
In 2014, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 9,967 deaths (31 percent of overall driving fatalities).
Economic Burden:
In 2010, alcohol misuse cost the United States $249.0 billion.
Three-quarters of the total cost of alcohol misuse is related to binge drinking.
Why aren’t we dealing with this abomination?
Shouldn’t the alcohol industry be held financially accountable and that money used to repair the damage being done instead of our tax dollars.
– end from friend -….
IMHO
(And they are after certain style guns:
Sad, sad indeed).
Need we discuss abortion?
How many early deaths occur due to overeating? Does that make it a sin to eat food?
David Lewayne Porter to respond to you misquoting me again:
“Is that why the wheat and tares grow together,
That is why men will grow worse and worse
That is why there will be a GREAT falling away.”
“The messages of Evan Roberts were simple and yet powerful, so much so that it was reported that even the bars (pubs) closed for lack of patrons. ” – just one of many examples. This WHY we should study church history – so we dont repeat it.
The reason we have a falling away is namely because preachers drink and are scared to preach the holiness way because their drinking parishioners would not pay them – so much for holiness by the church clerk paycheck IF churches preach holiness way again bars will close down
BTW if you believe the great falling away you should also believe in a last days great revival. But how do I explain something like that to a pessimistic eschatologian?
AMEN Melvin Harter
https://www.proclaimanddefend.org/2017/01/20/evan-roberts-and-the-welsh-revival/
Troy Day
If you don’t think that you are able to explain anything to a pessimistic eschatologian
Then why do you troll and tag them?
When you can reconcile Spirit Filled Holy Ghost believers being demonized and acting out during services as they hold positions of authority within the Church
Then maybe just maybe those pessimistic eschatologians will listen to you as an authoritative source.
I dont think I am able to explain anything to a pessimistic eschatologian either. Are you one? Praise GOD anyhow Joseph D. Absher David Lewayne Porter and how do you reconcile Spirit Filled Holy Ghost believers drinking beer and strong drinks?
So Troy Day
You believe that a great end time revival is going to close bars and pubs while they are going to be needed for the simultaneous falling away?
Nice theology there.
Yes, I see said the blind man.
8)
David Lewayne Porter What is the measure in your practical commitments against drinking preachers / members and preachers who condone social drinking? The exact measure pls
A Biblical tithe:
Deuteronomy 14:26
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Troy Day and Melvin Harter Do you think God was wrong?
Now Link,
Don’t confuse Troy.
The idea that tradition, including stuff preached from old timey pulpits, might not be Biblical can be confusing to some people.
If you insist that a man not drink wine to be holy shouldn’t you also insist that he grow his hair long?
Sorry for not including you in my cog references Angel Ruiz whats your take on all this?
Not to throw the discussion off but if I remember correctly the grand old methodist Mr. Wesley recommended some wine to his preachers. But the climate in jolly old England is rather damp.
I have seen where Wesley was against alcohol use except for as prescribed by a physician. Yet and using alcohol as prescribed by a physician, it still shows the moderation of use. That’s why I stand the way I do. If someone says they’re a teetotaler, then they can’t use it anytime anyway in any form.
I believe Wesley was referring to strong drink. Gin etc.
The Johnathon Wesley foundation has some interesting reading on the subject.
I have on fact read Wesley was a home brewer
Sources please
Leaving for early church. Later?
I am almost at service now
Yup and praying for focus lol
There is a sermon quote where he recommended beer I came across not too long ago. He was apparently against distilled liquor.
Source please
Many preachers been sipping nyquil this flue season
Oh no… They are sinning. Take their license… Ha ha ha ha ha ha
now thats a proven fact http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newspring-removes-perry-noble-due-to-alcoholism/
Troy Day If the man is getting drunk on a regular basis… Of course… But you mentioned NyQuil
Perry Noble had a larger issue than nyquil or medicine or for that matter flavorings.
He had an issue, a youthful lust – with alcohol which was shown by a lack of moderation, as in he had no moderation.
He has been reinstated in Clemson – probably because of the building project he started next to the campus and needed to supervise Do you know him personally?
O HOLY GOD we, have come to a point where
pastors text and post on facebook during sermon hour while thousands are going to hell in a hand basket at the same time
teachers be sipping a beer with friends on Saturday night and get up to teach Sunday school on Sunday morning still with alcohol on their breath
seminary professors teaching it is OK to drink in the Bible during the so called Theology on Tap meetings in a local pub
lonely pastors sitting in their cars shooting whiskey in the darkness of the church parking lot after preaching 2-3 services on Sunday
preachers are concerned with every social, political and cultural issues except the salvation of eternal human souls Alan Smith Melvin Harter
Preacher be eating and drinking with sinners while teaching them about the kungdom of heaven then be condemned by the Pharisees for doing so.
cheap excuse
Your whole way of thinking about this is so alien to the way the apostles thought about it and what the Bible teaches.
It’s kind of like this anti-beard Oneness preacher. Most of us don’t care one way or another about beards. Wearing a beard doesn’t make you any less holy. But because of this guy’s tradition for whatever reason, they must have some weird idea that not wearing a beard is more holy.
He wrote,
“When Apostolic Pentecostal Churches And Organizations Say It Is Ok To Wear Beards, The Question Soon Arises…
Why?
What do they hope to gain?
Does that bring revival?
Is this in anyway related to the same spirit of rebellion of the Hippies?
What is the purpose?
In some twisted way does the wearer feel it makes them more like Jesus? How?
Isn’t pride part of it?”
From: https://martynballestero.com/2014/05/27/i-dont-like-facial-hair-on-pentecostal-men/
Isn’t that whole line of questioning just dumb? Why think there is anything wrong with beards in the first place? Some people interpret Isaiah to mean Jesus ahd a beard.
beards? another cheap excuse when out of ammo ? attack the issue not the person – the issue is depressed preachers turn to whisky and substance abuse
Troy Day I notice your tactic when someone demolishes one of your arguments– call their post a ‘cheap excuse.’
You are out of order. Speak to the issue please
Preachers shouldn’t get drunk. Neither should deacons or any other Christian. But Jesus instituted something that involved drinking alcohol in church.
Link Hudson You are absolutely right link. Therefore, those who do not use alcoholic wine in the Lord supper are not following after holiness. They’re following after their own ideals.
Randal W Deese If they aren’t Jewish and it isn’t around Passover time, does it matter if the wine is kosher?
Link Hudson The only thing that’s important to me as we follow scripture as best as we can without playing games with his word for our own personal agendas
Nowhere JESUS said to use wine for the Supper. He literally said THIS CUP – go figure it out when you learn Greek
Troy Day Perhaps you could go study the idiom of Hebrew call fruit of the vine… I’m tell grape juice was introduced everybody understood what it meant… This novel Doctrine is sin
Troy Day It says cup. It says fruit of the vine. But Jews drank wine at Passover–fully fermented to be kosher for Passover. And what ever the Corinthians were drinking could get an individual drunk if he drank it in excess.
You know that for a fact from where? Not the Bible at all means There is no single verse in the NT saying Jesus drunk strong wine. Show me one? The only one you’ve been copy pasting is false accusation from his enemies which still does not imply he practiced social drinking as you imply.
Troy Day Of John the Baptist we read,
13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink.
(NKJV)
What did John not drink?
Luke 7
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 But wisdom is justified by all her children.”
(NKJV)
Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. Do you disagree? The accusation implied excess, which was not true.
It is plausible to suggest Jesus held the same standards as John the Baptist did They read from the same Scriptures in the same community => same standards
Troy Day Nazarites were not allowed wine or strong drink.
But strong drink was poured out as an offering before the Lord. He apparently didn’t think of it as some preachers do, as if it were dung in the camp. And Jews were allowed to use one of the tithes, if they lived far from the place the LORD chose, to buy food, wine, and strong drink to consume.
Troy Day Jesus and John were different. John did not come eating or drinking, but the Son of Man came eating and drinking.
So said his enemies only – no one else They did quote from the same OT manuscripts however which denotes their interpretation was not that much different. But again NO where the Bible says Jesus drunk wine. Dr. Arrington makes a great case for that – read it in the article and good luck
Troy Day Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. HIs opponents took this and distorted it to call Him a winebibber. What beverage was discussed in that passage in Luke 7?
Jesus said that whatever the scribes and Pharisees ‘bid you observe, that observe and do.’ Why would He have had a beverage besides wine in the cup if that were the case?
So do you do everything that the scribes and Pharisees ‘bid or just the social drinking. This is again a partial argument so easily excuse. You simple have no Biblical evidence for social drinking. That’s all
Troy Day Come on. Be honest with yourself. Don’t you realize there is no reason to try to read back teetotalerism into the scriptures except for tradition– your church tradition for about 100 years or a little more has opposed all alcoholic beverages. But you can read the Bible too. You can see that drinking wine or beer (or strong drink) for tithes as allowed in the Old Testament, just like I can.
Like me, you can’t find where wine was outlawed. Sure, there are warnings against it. Excess of wine is a dangerous thing. But it isn’t forbidden. There are also some positive statements about wine. It is given to make men’s heart’s merry.
The Jews drank wine at Passover. It had to be fermented completely to be kosher, because the yeast had to die completely to be removed. Jesus drank ‘the fruit of the vine.’ You might insist one of the 12 sailed a boat to the Americas to get some tomato juice, or that some other fruit of the vine was in the cup. But you know that is ridiculous just as I do.
I’m asking you to be honest with yourself. Depart from tradition for once when it just doesn’t make sense.
Troy Day Kosher wine for Passover was one of the kosher issues the scribes and Pharisees dealt with. And it was a religous festival, not mere ‘social drinking.’
And I suppose one could argue that since a group of people were drinking a cup of wine, it was social
Thank God for wine and Strong drink. May Believers return to the truth of the Bible instead of committing the anachronistic Fallacy with their novel doctrines of Pharisaic Legalism. Talk about a tradition of man!
Not to sure about thanking God for strong drink,,,
But I do agree with the rest of it.
Maybe rejoicing with strong drink would have been a better way of saying it… *Smile*
Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household…
Yes I know the scriptures over strong drink in celebration.
I also know the ones against it.
Nowhere did JESUS say to use wine for the Supper.
Literally NO WHERE
He said THIS CUP is my blood
The Hebrew idiom fruit of the vine was always alcoholic beverage… Go study the older Hebrew language
Troy Day
How were the Corinthians leaving the Lord’s table/supper “drunken”?
Paul’s commission to them was against drunkenness as he offered moderation and restraint as well as reminding them it was God’s house, not their own.
David Lewayne Porter Since you ask – how do you practice the Lord’s supper – do you give wine or juice? What has your denomination authorized you to give with the bread?
No Troy Day
You always divert.
You accuse others of teaching man’s traditions and not having proper biblical understanding and follow through, so
Why were the Corinthians leaving drunken?
How according to your BIBLE were they getting drunken?
As Jesus said to his Pharisees,
“You can’t answer me, then neither do I answer you”.
No diversion. I ask you directly – do you practice what you preach? It is a simple test for hypocrisy Will you stand you in your church at Communion and serve strong wine? I would and I have. Dont divert from my question please – what do you serve during Communion?
Troy Day,
I asked first, I asked according to scripture.
You diverted.
You asked according to man’s teaching and traditions.
Sad, sad indeed.
I just wonder if you do it intentionally or if you truly don’t see it……
Why you call me a fraud? I havent called you any names? Arent you a fraud being licensed in a non-drinking denomination but you hold a Jesus-drunk theology David Lewayne Porter You should surrender your license
Troy Day Certainly Jesus drank alcoholic drinks.
Luk 7:33-34 NET. For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ (34) The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
The Jews of His day took the fact that Jesus drank wine, to the extreme, in an attempt to paint Jesus in a poor light. I have no doubt that Jesus never got “drunk”, but from this verse it is obvious that He did drink alcohol beverages.
Troy Day
Your biblical misunderstanding shows….
Allow me,
You mentioned strong wine…
Biblically speaking.
It is wine and then strong drink.
Where did you biblically, not man’s traditions, get strong wine?
Sad indeed
I addressed this already Randal W Deese This is what his enemies said about Him. You got no case there
Troy Day You need to read it in a little more closely….
Troy Day, when you can address the conversation that you left and refuse to address to where you claim spirit filled Holy Ghost believers can possess and manifest demon during church services,,,
Then you may sit in a position to require someone else to abide by teaching or surrender credentials.
Troy Day Jesus is the one that said that he came eating and drinking… Don’t read into Scriptures what you wanted to say
David Lewayne Porter In your organization how does one report a minister who indulges in social drinking theology? How does the process work exactly? Would you please tell me I also ask bro Melvin Harter on this one Thank you so much for you answer
And for the record I have used both.
I have used Welch’s
BUT
DID YOU KNOW those little premade communion cups will FERMENT before their expiration date?
And it is not just one church or service I have been in that used them while they had fermented.
So Troy Day
Take all their credentials.
So back to you. …
The Corinthians were leaving DRUNKEN!
Your Bible says that in KJV and Greek.
I rest my case.
David Lewayne Porter Will you please answer my question: In your organization how does one report a minister who indulges in social drinking theology? How does the process work exactly? No answer? I rest my case
Troy Day
Why, are you a credentialed CoG member wanting to do so?
What is a credentialed member? I would like to know what the exact process is. Will you tell me please?
Troy Day
Trust me, the CoG knows my stance, I have the same discussions in house on our closed forums
Active member or credentialed minister, take your pick, I don’t believe you are either,
I have never seen your name on the lists. …
Gotta go, at work, until tonight…
Troy Day that gives you time to answer my question biblically
So you wouldnt tell me 🙂 Surely someone would know what the process is to be followed here
Where is David? If he has been kicked out because he disagrees with Troy, I will leave as well… I don’t play with dictator groups
Bro Day, there have been several CoG ministers who were found to be drinking alcoholic beverages. Their ministries were totally revoked. Some years later, they were able to get their credentials back. Now those who engage into the social drinking theology? I can only officially state what it was some years ago. There were two specific questions on every CoG ministerial examination; namely, (1) are there any CoG Teachings that you disagree with? And (2) Do you agree with ALL the Teachings of the CoG and will you abide by each one of them? Of course, you must answer these questions correctly if you are to be granted ministerial license in the CoG. If you failed to correctly answer either of these two particular questions, then you were denied acceptance.
Melvin Harter I’m glad I am not a part of humanistic legalistic denomination. Praise God!!! Jesus would lose His credentials!
Bro Randal W Deese, I too am glad that I am not of a worldly church denomination. Praise God! Jesus would never be found there.
Right on Biblical Because of the effects of drinking alcoholic beverages, the Bible is against drinking alcohol (Prov. 23:29-35). In fact, in the New Testament there appears to be a clear movement toward the rejection of the use of alcohol and for total abstinence. Such a movement is known as the “Biblical process.” For example, in the New Testament we can see the significance of the Biblical process in reference to the actual drink used in the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus instituted the Supper, he did not use the term “wine” (oinos). Rather he spoke of “the fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26:26-27; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:17-20). Furthermore, Paul speaks of “the cup” when referring to the beverage used in the Supper (1 Cor. 10:16, 21; 11:23-28). The point is, it is very significant that there is no reference in Scripture to wine in connection with the Lord’s Supper. Does this suggest something about Jesus’ and Paul’s attitude regarding strong drink?
Nonsense. Fruit of the vine might free us Gentiles up a bit. But three chapters earlier in Matthew Jesus said to do what the scribes and Pharisees bid because they sat in Moses seat. Jesus and the apostles would jave kept kosher and hotten rid pf the yeast and not eaten ot at Passover. Grape juice was not kosher for Passover. When the wine was fully fermented, Jews would slough off the dead yeast. It was the custom to mix the wine with up to six parts water.
When it came to drinking Jesus said to the apostles- drink ye all of it. They all were to drink of it.
Timothy likely tried teetotalerism. Paul told him to keep himself ppure but told him not to drink water only but to drink a little wine for his stomach’s sake.
And we can look through history and see where this absolutely no wine stance came from. It is not from the Bible. The verse you refer to warns against excess.
Europens developed didtillation andcheap ginbecame available to the poor in England. This led to many social problems.
John Wesley pteached against drinking distilled liquor but considered drinking a lottle wine good gor health, whoch he would regularly drink in small, modeate anounts if he were sick. Methodists and others they influenced raising social awareness about and opposing consumption of distilled liquor evolved into a stance against beer and wine in moderation.
And all this is biblically indefensible. Why would the Bible say deacons should not be given to much wine if drinking it was not allowed at all?
You actually have no Bible for any of what you just said
So what do we see from early pentecostalism? What can we glean from this? This egalitarian nature of the Azusa Street Mission allowed, in one part, many from different denominations to come into the doors and receive the baptism. On the other hand, you had acquiescence to political or social mores. When early pentecostals left the mission, they found themselves in positions like Lake, in compliance with the government. They often found themselves sometimes — like Charles H. Mason, who came to the mission as well — in direct defiance of the government because of their pacifistic beliefs. Mason was followed by the early FBI because of believing in pacifism.
What we can see from the core of the movement is a global focus. The things that concerned early pentecostals, whether it was economics, social or political concerns or this evangelistic thrust of xenoglossolalia, brought Azusa Street Mission people into contact with the rest of the world. This pentecostal experience that was not tendered into the denominational structure of strict organizational lines were able to mutate, proliferate and grow from the imaginations of those who thought of themselves as being this missing link to the upper room at Pentecost.
Yes ! Total Abstinence !
AMEN