Are there Apostles today? What virtually every Pentecostal denomination believes about apostolic ministry in the 21st century
Seven years ago, I took a teaching sabbatical in Burundi. When I set foot on U.S. soil again, I had the exact opposite of a sense of accomplishment. This ambivalence...
Apostles today? This is a question only because of unbiblical notions of “apostleship” evolved in church history. The RCC claimed that the Pope was the last apostle, and therefore had total authority in the Church and also the authority to write new doctrine (encyclicals). The Protestants simply didn’t want more popes claiming absolute “apostolic” authority, ergo, by fiat, they claimed no more apostles existed after the 89 or so listed in the NT.
The answer of the NT itself DEMANDS more apostles as a universal command from the NT canon: “It is the same God who energizes them ALL [charismata, which include apostles] IN EVERYONE (1 Cor 12:6), AND “Desire earnestly the BEST GIFTS: (1 Cor 12:31).
If apostles are listed as “FIRST” and prophecy as “SECOND” how can we claim that this clear command of scripture applies only before the later “cessationist canon” of the NT–the canon that deletes all references to miracles? It sounds pretty universal to me!! This command to “desire earnestly” the “best” gift of apostleship applies to the reader, in all times and places, doesn’t it? “–to your children, and to all those afar off” Cessationists have long told us not to seek tongues speaking because this is the “least of the gifts” appearing last on the list. If this argument is to be taken seriously, then how can they deny the command to “desire earnestly” the BEST gifts, ranked #1 and #2 in the list!! How can the Bible, the holy, divinely-inspired, inerrant, word of God written, COMMAND us to seek the gift of apostleship if the offer is not honest, genuine, and available to the reader?
Cessationists are accusing the Bible of lying. I BELIEVE THE GIFT OF APOSTLESHIP EXISTS TODAY BECAUSE THE HOLY, INERRANT, UNIVERSAL, DIVINELY INSPIRED, WORD OF GOD WRITTEN, COMMANDS IT FOR THE READER. Cessationism denies the clear commands of scripture in favor of an old Jewish anti-Christian doctrine that prophecy ceased and was replaced by their “theologians” and Talmud. Powerless church bureaucrats embraced this heresy to protect their “authority” in the church. “Having a form or religion, but denying its dunamis [miracle power]” (2 Tim 3:5, see by contrast, 2 Tim 1:7-8).
See also the further argument in Appendix II, “Does the Gift of Apostleship also Continue?” and Appendix III, “The ‘Foundation Gifts’ of Ephesians 2:20” in On the Cessation of the Charismata 2nd ed., 2011.
I agree in the continouous office of the Apostle, and I also believe in the rampent abouse of the term today.
I agree.
Same here. If people are really going around starting a churches and healing people…..then yeah they are an apostle. If not….doubtful.
Does not believing in the apostolic constitute a cessationism stance?
I think that’s the Cessationist stance. No Apostles no prophets and the Bible is the perfect knowledge of 1Corinthians 13. Thus dismissing chapters 12 & 14
How is the oneness apostolic then not Cessationism?
Joseph are you saying that the written Epistles are the perfectamundo that was to come to do away with the prophetic ministry??
No. I’ve posted before about. I couldn’t believe it when I first heard about it right here on P.T. I thought people been praying and asking God for deliverance since the beginning of time. It’s kinda built into a man. To seek God. It takes a special kinda of education and intelligence to believe God don’t hear prayers and help folks in trouble.
We always called it doubt and unbelief. Never heard if a Cessationist
Troy Day Apostolics don’t believe in apostles?
I believe that many persons function in roles similar to that of apostle or other five fold ministry types but I don’t like the use of labels including doctor, bishop, or whatever.
I agree! I believe many if not all believers are gifted with some form of five-fold ministry to help advance God’s Kingdom, and not just those called to full-time, ordained minister. But, I too prefer to see labels avoided. We should be humble in serving in our callings and ministries and not seek the acclimation of men.
The greatest Christian leaders of the past 500 years never claimed the title, “Apostle.” Therefore, it is most repellent that, in our day, we are surrounded by hundreds (even thousands) of carnally-minded and theologically-confused individuals, who DO claim the title. Therefore, I hold fast to Rev. 21:14, which sets the number of Christ’s apostles at 12 for all eternity.
Well said.
I have seen many who claim to be apostles become increasingly aberrant in their theology as time went on.
Presumption and deception walk hand-in hand.
Many claimed to be sent were never really known by Him
Switch Wigglesworth was called the Apostle of faith in his latter years.
This is how people viewd Smith.
I say the Apostic calling still stands for today.
What about the seventy sent out by Jesus, what title did they have?
Didn’t the Bible call them disciples
Didn’t the Bible call Peter Mark John Diciples?
They became Apostles after his resurrection.
But what did the seventy sent out become after his resurrection, we’re they Evangelist? ? Or were they now called Apostles? :- )
I think the big take away was Jesus initially had the twelve Apostle’s of the Lamb. Eyewitnesses. But the 70 we’re regular folks with a heart for God. Give the same authority and power to preach and do Gods works. But not the ones that daily walked with Christ and were commissioned establish the new testament church. My understanding the 70 we’re untitled. Imagine the price though. A disciple of Christ. It means something. That’s not a light thing
But you see Paul was chosen afterwards and must of been given the name Apostle by the others, or by the Lord himself.
But still the seventy sent out exercised the same kind of faith as the twelve had.
They were all given the authority to raise the dead, cast out devils, heal the sick.
We’ve only got a taste of what actually went on back then.
Not every miracle Jesus performed was recorded.
Not Mathew, Mark, Luke, or even the Miraculous that John had taken part in.
We only have a taste to receive by faith
I don’t think they are the pastors of American Churches. they ae God called and sent missionaries who are laboring for the gospel to those who would never hear otherwise. DEW
What’s DEW?
My initials.
Nothing’s dew, what’s dew with you?
Is DEW your initials?
JR
I wonder if we look at the NT as a whole in comparison to what we see and hear today, our own presumptions and assumptions regarding offices and titles would miss the mark. Philippians 3 Paul establishes a baseline set of his own titles and pedigree to in retrospect call them mere scraps or the dead corpse to be cast off the boat at sea.
And why would you need your initials DEW in addition to your name Don Watson in the header? Do you think someone will steal your work?
Many people who brought the message of Jesus to new regions and peoples were dubbed “apostles”, eg Patrick, Cyrril and Methodius atc.
Dan Irving paul sets the number at 12 before he came aling so there is a problem with your interpretation.
What would be the theological foundation for such broad assumption?
If there are apostles today then we would have to decide if the revelations that they say they have are in the same level with the Scriptures. If we believe so, then we are not “protestants” anymore because “Sola Scriptura” is the foundation of the Protestant Reformation, we would have an open Canon where new revelations would be included (very dangerous indeed). If we say that the revelations of modern apostles aren’t in the same level with the Scriptures then these new apostles aren’t like the original ones, so they wouldn’t be apostles in the biblical sense. Besides this the Scriptures say that the foundation is on the apostles and prophets being Jesus Christ the chief corner stone, how many times do you put a foundation? Only once, so there’s no need for new apostles and least but not last: apostles and prophets aren’t “charismata” as the writer in the article says but “doma” gifts (Ephesians 4).
Ricky Grimsley So what do we do with folk who tell us God called them to be apostles?
I’m totally skeptical of people who say “god told me” anything. I’ve heard preachers say the went on a forty day fast and God traveled to them post trib rapture and also plenty of pretrib people say it to among other things that I know to be false. So yeah maybe there are apostles today…..but I certainly don’t know any.
It depends on how much these ones called Apostles exercise the deliverance of the people. Do they actual see sickness of the devil, or do they compromise with the devil concerning sicknesses and diseases.
There are ones that do call themselves an Apostle but yet no one is hardly healed through their prayers
After Jesus sent the twelve, He ascended on high and gifts unto men, including apostles. So there were apostles after the 12. Most of the apostles did not write scripture.
If the Spirit speaks and says to sepatate men for ministry and sends them out, and they tale the gospel to unreached souls, resulting in new chirches, is it possible that those who are sent out are apostles? Acts calls men like that apostles.
The apostles have one thing in common: all saw Jesus Christ (even Paul in the road to Damascus). Modern day “Apostles” know it and declare that they’ve seen him too, but by their fruits you’ll know. Other characteristic of an apostle are the “apostolic signs”: miracles, healings, like the performed by the twelve. Modern day “Apostles” claim that they have the same power but we don’t see that, just claims. Besides that Jesus said that in the future will come false Christs (anointed ones) and false prophets, so my personal interpretation is to beware of these new self proclaimed apostles.
Gerardo de Dominicis How can you know if Barnabas, Silas, or Timothy ever saw Jesus?
Link Hudson The Bible doesn’t say they did and to see Jesus was needed to be considered an apostle, at least that’s what I understand from Paul’s defense of his apostleship. What I see today is a lot of people who proclaim themselves as an apostles just for the prestige and power it conveys on the minds of his followers. Nowadays everybody claims visions and going to the heaven and stuff like that but even when we know that God gives dreams and visions, all the supernatural experiences have to be tested with the Scriptures and there’s where I see the so called new apostles fail. One of the reasons for the reformers to be cessationist was the big amount of mysticism in the catholic religion, spreading superstition and a negligence of the Study of the Word of God and sadly we are seeing this again in many charismatic and Pentecostal circles.
Paul did not see Jesus, he only heard a voice.
Many Christians today claim to of heard his voice speak to them.
Now could it be that Saul had heard his voice speak to his inner man?
Because no one else heard the voice but Paul, they all had seen a great light.
I have had the Lord speak to me, like he had Paul but without the great light, does this make me an Apostle?
No!
Paul was a chosen sheep for set forth for the Master’s use.
Jesus had said, “my sheep hear my voice, and they know me..
I take that back the ones who were with Paul had heard the voice of the Lord.
But it isn’t recorded that any of them repented.
Saul also heard a the Lord’s voice but he did not see Christ.
The light had blinded him.
I have seen the Lord in visions a few times. Two different times when I first became a Christian and had felt all alone not knowing, or meeting any other Christians yet.
When I came to Christ I didn’t trust churches and I did not view them as Christian until I had grown in the Lord by the reading of the Word.
And that took three to four years.
The first Christians that I had met I would question intently making sure they had seen what I was seeing in his word.
LOL those people must of thought, “where is this fella coming from.
I received my first physical healing with in the three to four year span not being associated with a church yet.
And I thank God for it because the way the Pentecostal churches are today I might not of trusted the Lord for the impossibilities later on in my life, because most run to their earthly physicians instead of the GREAT I AM, when an ailment comes their way.
They always candycoat the scriptures saying that God heals through the earthly physicians.
If that would be true then why isn’t it so in Heaven?
They will be done in Earth as it is in Heaven
Gerardo de Dominicis paul asks am i not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? These were reasimons he should livevof the gospel. If being free were required did Paul lose his apostleship when he was imprisoned?
Melvin Shomo “Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?”
1 Corinthians 9:1 KJV
Link Hudson what does it mean “am I not free?” I understand it as free in Christ, not physical freedom.
Gerardo de Dominicis I take it to mean physical freedom. He was working without pay. They weren’t paying him…. like they wouldn’t pay a slave.
Your interpretation sounds legit.
Are there still pastors and evangelists in this day and age?
Gerardo de Dominicis One of the requirements for apostleship is to see Jesus Paul said
Am I not an apostle?
Did I not see Jesus?
It has been interpreted to be his experience on Damascus road
Many modern day apostles claim to have seen the resurrected Christ
Yes, that’s what I said, one of the requirements is to see Jesus. The twelve did and Paul did on the road to Damascus.
Many others have seen Jesus since to become His sent ones
Maria Woodworth-Etter preached the Pentecostal message as early as 1885, and by 1912 she was one of Pentecostalism’s most popular evangelists. In this excerpt from A Diary of Signs and Wonders, she describes her call to ministry.
The dear Savior stood by me one night in a vision and talked face to face with me, and asked what I was doing on earth. I felt condemned, and said, “Lord, I am going to work in thy vineyard.”
The Lord said, “When?”
I answered, “When I get prepared for the work.”
Then the Lord said to me, “Don’t you know that while you are getting ready souls are perishing? Go now, and I will be with you.” …
There’s where we have to use discernment. Maybe she did or maybe she didn’t. When Paul saw Jesus he wasn’t alone, other people were with him and witnessed the event. Joseph Smith said that he saw God, Jesus and angels and he was a false prophet. I don’t deny all the visions and dreams only that we have to be very careful with that, testing all with the Scriptures.
The consistent Biblical witness is that when ones is called to the work of the apostle, great multitudes are saved and miracle follow. The witness of others is not a Biblical requirement. Salvation and miracles, however, as in the case of Paul, Etter and others, is a Biblical requirement
So you are implying that Etter was an apostle?
Paul did not say that seeing Jesus was a requirement for being an apostle; he only made that a part of his defense for his apostleship. Several other NT apostles probably never saw Jesus–Timothy, Titus, Epaphraditis, Andronicus and Junia, Apollos.
Pentecostals do not steal.
Unless they are pastors or evangelists!
Relevance Daniel J Hesse
Melvin Shomo Ricky Grimsley How can we as Pentecostal be skeptical toward people who say God told me so?
Because people lie for money and also they mistake their own voice for God’s. I could tell you stories that would frighten you.
Doubt it 🙂
How to be sceptical.
It all depends on what they say that God had told them so.
Everytime the Apostle Paul gave his testimony on the road of Damascus they were sceptical.
King Agrippa said that Paul was mad, crazy.
They are saying God called them to be apostles…
and they are women… Melvin Shomo
I am not against woman taking a lead rule.
If the sign gifts actually follow them then I would give them a pass.
But if they only want the name of Apostle.
Then I say that they are three sheets into the wind
Smith Wigglesworth had never called himself an Apostle, but he had rightly earned the name The Apostle of faith from those who had witnessed his life.
The Pope to the Catholic is considered an Apostle.
Troy Day do you consider Pope Francis an Apostle? :- )
Apostle to the Catholics? John E. Ruffle
I don’t agree with much of Peter Wagner’s teaching on this and I don’t think the Apostle Paul would put “Apostle” on his business cards and website today, but I do believe in the reality of apostles today. Ephesians 4:11-13 is clear that all of the 5-fold ministry is needed until we all come in unity of the faith, the full knowledge (Greek–epignosis) of Christ, to the maturity of Christ–none of which will be completed until Christ’s coming. At the same time, no apostle today has the authority of the Twelve or Paul. At least 8 other apostles are mentioned in the NT–Silas, Barnabas, Timothy, Apollos, Epaphroditis, Titus, Andronicus and Junia (probably a husband-wife apostolic team). Other post-NT documents considered Luke an apostle, and the 72 sent out later. Dozens throughout church history have been considered apostles–Patrick, Columba, Luther, George Mueller, etc., etc.
I’m not a Wagner fan either, but I do believe that the apostolic ministry like all of the others in Ephesians 4 are alive and well as the Holy Spirit gives gifts. I don’t believe the “five-fold” gifts (as some have called them) are titles. They are functions in the Church. I’m not a fan of titles either. LOL
Paul L. King How can we obtain and publish here for discussion some of your lectures?
I have some PowerPoint presentations, but I don’t know how to attach that here.
I’ve got a chapter in my book that addresses this. I need to publish it.
Didnt know there were baptist apostles
I wouldn’t know much about that.
It is not clear if Andronichus and Junoa ere notable apostles or individuals the apostles considered to be notable.
The literal Greek is: notable IN the apostles
The grammatical point made is that “the Greek preposition en which is used here always has the idea of ‘within.’”
Greek text books point out that en followed by the dative normally means “in, on or among.” For example, en tois is translated as “among those” (1 Cor 2:6), and en tois ethnesin as “among the Gentiles” (Acts 15:12, 1 Cor 5:1, Gal 2:2, Col 1:27, 1 Pet 2:12).
Where en tois is followed by a plural noun referring to a group of people, the word en is translated as “among.” Liddel-Scott defines the Greek word episemoi as “having a mark on” it; meaning they were not just notable but that they were outstanding among the apostles. http://probible.net/romans-167/
Although there is not full consensus from biblical exegetes on this verse, the majority of scholars recognize Junia(s) is a woman, and that she along with Andronicus (either as husband or brother) are outstanding AMONG the apostles as an apostle. While “en” can be used in both ways, even the majority of those who translate Junias as male, also translate “en” as among, thus Junias is considered an apostle. The extra biblical texts are recognized as a female form with no instances of a male name of Junias, but about 250 instances of Junia. Those who say otherwise use a circular argument. Junia(s) is masculine because there are no women apostles. There are no women apostles, therefore Junia(s) must be a man.
I read most of his books. While I’m not a cessationist, I can’t recommend his ministry; it was way too commercial.
and why wouldnt you? Steve Losee many are commercial
I saw the pattern (I worked for a company that worked with him). Every two years or so he would announce a new “move of God”: Church Growth, Prayer, Intercession, Spiritual Warfare, Prophetic, Apostolic, etc. They would start with a conference, followed by seminars featuring the same basic “stable” of speakers and writers…all of which were recorded and made available for a price. As they petered out, he would replace them with the next one. At its core, there was nothing really spiritual about any of it…except that people’s faith was rewarded just often enough to keep the credibility up. I’m not a fan of “celebrity ministries” in general, and he showed me just how far off they could go.
very very interesting – Ive managed several of his NY network members and they kind of did the same When the old one is out of fad go to a new one – no continuity or roots
What about his last book?
I don’t remember which was his last; stopped reading them after I got his “commentary” on Acts…which was just a long commercial for his other books.
Isn’t this American Christianity? Apostolic success.
Wondering?
It’s American all right, but it’s NOT Scriptural.
Daniel J Hesse
Is there “American Christianity”? I didn’t know.
Isara Mo Ask Troy, he can instruct more perfectly.
Apostolic success is also the Pope of Rome The question is about Apostolic success of the NT church not just ANY Apostolic success.
Troy Day why not?
not just ANY Apostolic success – devil’s apostles/fasle apostles NOT any apostleship would suffice
Troy Day Rome doesn’t operate a five fold Ministry so how can an apostolic succession work be of papacy tradition.
Troy, did Jesus appoint the Pope as APOSTLE or was it just another in the many human philosophies and tradition..which the Church blindly inherited and adhere to…?
He appointed others to be apostles, prophets. teachers, evangelists, pastors for what purpose?…to equip his people for works of service.
If they are not apostles today, teachers and evangelists and pastors and prophets should pack their bags and quit and ket theoreticians equip the believer…
The Bible says God himself has this five fold ministry to equip the saint..Man now asks just the Devil asked Eve” Did God really appoint apostles..for today?”
I chose not to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and say. “YES GOD DID SAY APOSTLES ARE FOR TODAY”
appointed – WHO did? Did God appoint WAgner?
Troy Day ouch! Pls b careful.
in asking questions? {and no claims made?}
Troy Day versus claims received?
don’t forget the ‘infallibility ‘ thing , on both protestant and catholic side , absolute foolishness !
what is it in the apostolic tradition ?
the bible ???
Wagner admitted in much of being wrong
The Bible states that some are given to be apostles, some prophets, some pastors, some teachers…..
do they have to see Jesus to be apostles?
technically yes , but in Paul’s case he was blinded and knocked off his high horse.
Epistles or apostles?
oposums ?
Troy Day ?
apopsicles?
Troy Day help is on the way.
Pertinent topic for today’s Church. I did my D.Min. project/dissertation on the topic: “The Superintendent Leader-shift from Pastoral to Apostolic Function: Awareness and Training in Leadership Development for District Superintendents in the Assemblies of God USA”. And, in June ’19 our book is being published -co-authored by AGTS (Assemblies of God Theological Seminary) professor Dr. Carolyn Tennant- “Apostles and Prophets: Embracing the Authentic-Avoiding the Bizarre”. #fivefold
I find the practice of some churches to call people apostle so-and-so and prophet so-and-so to be rather irritating. Honestly, I don’t like the ‘pastor so-and-so’. When I was a kid, the pastor was ‘Brother so and so’ and so were all the men, and the women were ‘Sister so and so.’
I think about the greetings in the marketplace.
I do believe in the gift of apostleship, and I have probably met and corresponded with a few of them. I moderated a church planting forum around 2000, the New Testament Church Planting forum which was Posthumously renamed the New Testament Church Proliferation forum by the man who hosted it since he did not like the term ‘church planting.’ A number of house church planters were on the forum, and I think the archives are still available online. I asked how many of them believed they had an apostolic call, and in this safe environment, two or three or more did. I remember two in particular. They said they’d operated in signs and wonders when I asked.
I think Dick Scoggins might have posted this there or I read it elsewhere. I have never met Dick Scoggins in person, but he co-authored a book that some of the unreached people group m’naries were using along with George Patterson. Dick Scoggins believed the Lord had called him to be an apostle, and he believed if it was the Lord’s will, he would be sent out like in Acts 13. A prophecy came, his church laid hands on him, and he planted about 18 churches, house churches I think, in the Rhode Island area. I am not sure what all he did after that. But I know he was coaching certain church planters in unreached people group areas and I won’t go into too much detail on that.
Some time later though, Dick Scoggins wrote up an article for Missions Frontiers. I had emailed him about something, and he sent me a copy. Honestly, I did not like it much. It cast apostleship, or one type of it, as having something to do with crossing cultures, and it seemed to water down the role a bit and make it more palatable to the whole NAR way of thinking. But it has been a while, and maybe I should have chewed on the article more.
Maybe I should dig into some of the Peter Wagner and other books, but I haven’t heard about about that side of things to make it appealing-sounding enough to me to want to read those books.
It seems like the NAR view of apostleship is that if we can just have this next layer of hierarchy on top of the existing (or then existing) church structure, that the church can finally reach maturity and reach its destiny (and a whole much of exciting-sounding Charismatic catchphrases.) The idea is that an apostle is supposed to be a ‘father’ to pastors, taking a verse out of I Corinthians out of the context of Paul actually fathering people in the gospel through real evangelism.
One of the organizations considered apostles to be ‘movers and shakers’, and that they could accomplish things in the marketplace and weren’t all necessariliy in churches. Reading that, it sure seemed to me that the rope anchoring them to the concept of apostleship in the Bible had broken.
I have a question. Why do people in the NAR think ‘decreeing’ is supposed to be a special work of apostles?
A lot of declare and decree. Kind of kingly or royalty. Let me ask the same as Link. Why the concern for title or position. Lady asked are you an apostle, a prophet, or a teacher. I said, put me down as the toilet bowl cleaner. Only a friend of the Bridegroom.
preaching on divine passive tomorrow Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day sounds interesting to me… Not sure why we worry about what people call themselves.
are you not revered by your own parishioners?
Troy Day indeed they call me all sorts of things ?
Why is Peter Wagner’s picture on this thread? Did he fit the Biblical mold for an apostle?
I would probably ask the Apostle Charles C Jones about that one
Michael Ellis Carter Jr. message deliverance is a serious matter – taking a mantle, release of a word, operating under anointing
Troy Day I like it, we don’t talk enough about deliverance any more. It’s no wonder we don’t here much about signs and wonders in the church now. I pray your message breaks strongholds this morning. In all seriousness the people in the congregation will be much better off having heard your sermon today. I’m preaching about deliverance this morning as well but more specifically about breaking free from addictions.
we dont DO enough deliverance anymore
As Link Hudson knows, I have written a lot on this. I was raised in the church founded by the man who coined the term 5-fold ministry. He compared the 5 digits to the 5 offices. The thumb corresponded to the Apostle, the index finger to the Prophet. The Middle finger to the Teacher, and the small finger to the Evangelist.
He was also the source of the mid-twentieth century Latter Rain revival. He based the 5-fold ministry on the cloud like a man’s hand that Elijah’s servant saw from Mount Carmel. One of the black sisters in our church composed the song, ‘ The Latter Rain.’
But I would later understand why there can be no latter day Apostles. Their very existence would divide not only the body of Christ, but the faith itself. Apostles are first because they gave us the Bible, the basis of our faith.
In 1824, Edward Irving, a Presbyterian pastor in Scotland, began teaching that “the five-fold ministry” of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers had disappeared from the church and was in need of restoration. According to Irving, the restoration of these ministries would usher in the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on the earth. He was a great pastor. That was long time ago
Troy Day Irving did teach restoration of Apostles and gifts of the Spirit.
Ironically, John Nelson Darby learned his system of Dispensationalism, rather, a futurist reading of the book of Revelation, from Irving’s translation of the Chilean Jesuit Lacunza’s book from Spanish to English.
The Jesuit Francisco Ribera invented futurist prophecy to shield the Pope from accusations that he was the antiChrist. Ironically, the Cambridge mathematician Joseph Mede developed historical premillennialism to counter Ribera and the late sixteenth century Counter Reformation. Ribera supposed the antiChrist a future Apostate Jew in a restored Palestinian Israel.
Though also a Jesuit, the eighteenth century Lacunza believed that he would be an apostate Pope. ?
The Dispensationalist Darby certainly didn’t believe in any kind of restored church or spiritual gifts as seen in Irving’s Apostolic Church.
Irving taught restored Apostles. And the Keswick Conferences in England were influenced by these writings.
But, as best as I can tell, the term “five-fold,” a comparison of 5 offices of the ministry to the Lord’s visible folded hand in a restored body of Christ was a revelation of the Ohio-River preacher William Sowder’s and taught in his School of the Prophets meetings in Illinois and Kentucky. Due to the platform of this School of the Prophets (probably inspired by Parham’s own School of the Prophets) being open to both Trinitarian and Oneness ministers, these meetings were widely attended. Bishop Mason, founder of America’s largest Pentecostal Church certainly attended them as did the leaders of the New Order of Latter Rain, who were responsible for taking these five-fold teachings to the larger arena. The New Order focussed on prophetic words to individuals and greatly influenced the teachings of the Charismatics.
Glen Clark’s Camps Furtherest Out were also connected to this stream through Rufus Moseley.
the Darby Lacunza connection is pretty well known We have actually discussed it here somewhat but it probably belongs to a different OP Lacunza borrowed much from Fiore with his 3 eras of Father, Son and HS – Darby however did translate the BIBLE from original languages in French and English There is a small and not well known but very important book with his translators notes where he explains the actual BIBLE and then theology truth of his rapture findings during his double BIBLE translation I’ve tried to relate SOME of this to Link at times but it has proven to be a lost cause without basic understanding of at least Greek
I was attesting to the fact that
the use of 5-fold Gospel and 5-fold ministry did not originate with our times or your pastor less that being Paul the apostle himself
Actually @ Zion they did use BOTH terms 5-fold Gospel and 5-fold ministry and when John said he was apostle and Elijah they even use apostolic office and mantle
Troy Day You mean pages of capital English letter transliteration from back before the Internet supported Greek text? Most people here do not read Greek. If you want to convince someone of something, you should also post the relavent sentences, not just link to long web discussions. I think most of us would be suspicious of doctrine for which there is no support from the English translations.
Why didn’t other Greek readers and interpreters from the first century up to Darby understand this? Was a monk named Ephraim the only one? Doens’t it make more sense to think the monk jut got a little confused? (Btw, there is no reason to think that he was a full-blown pre-trib dispensationalist, just that one of his quotes is consistent with pre-trib.)
Troy Day well, the source is narrowing because there are very close connections between these groups. Do you have any sources on the dates when these terms were first being used at Zion and just who at Zion originated 5-fold if that’s the actual source?
If that’s being used at Zion or those springing from Zion prior to 1912, i’ll definitely change my view.
We agree that Apostle and other offices were being used at least from the time of Irving. It’s the origination of 5 fold that I was aiming to source.
Philip Williams Someone in the Catholic Apostolic Church movement that grew out of the church Irving pastored (not sure if they named it Catholic Apostolic Church before or after he died) preached a sermon that mentioned ‘Four-fold ministry.’
If ‘pastors and teachers’ are one group, then it does make sense to call Ephesians 4:11 ministry ‘four-fold ministry.’
I’m thinking it was by one of their so-called ‘apostles.’ (I don’t know what they did that was supposed to be apostolic, and it seems kind of like the NAR in that regard.)
Link Hudson
“4-fold”? What is the meaning of ‘fold’? One Sense is the multiplying effect of seed. But surely that would not apply to the number of ministry offices. That sounds like a modification of 5-fold ministry by those who prefer to combine the office of the pastor with that of the teacher.
Yes Phil – both 5s used @ Zion – not first but still used the both 5-terms were coined prior to Zion
Troy Day that should settle it. Do you know the original source?
ON The 5-fold Gospel or Full Gospel for Pentecostals took different forms until after the Azusa but salvation and sanctification – best sources cited Faupel, the Everlasting Gospel
on the 5-fold ministry – Irving as already cited You said the hand-chart was your pastor I am not sure if Irving used any
Troy Day
Not my pastor. He was retired from his secular job in 1912. So he is Zion era.
Maybe he just originated the hand interpretation of 5-fold.
Parham, Dake and so many others ALL pilgrimmed to and copied from Zion 🙂
Troy Day I knew about Parham and Zion. Wasn’t Durham somehow connected?
Durham was controversial on his own as he was able to spread his message of Pentecost and his new theological teaching of the “Finished Work,” from his Pentecostal Testimony and Hammer Piper’s Latter Rain Evangel. Piper was pastor of the Stone Church, Chicago, where the constituents were predominantly disillusioned ex-Dowie followers from Zion City.
Troy Day Wasn’t the AoG the main spreaders of finished work? Was not that the first issue dividing Pentecostals?
🙂 no comment – who was first on Jesus-only
Troy Day
Don’t know. But the Assembly of God’s McAlister began the Jesus Name message!
Troy Day i was first supposing you had AOG roots, but with so many Dake and (who is that Christian Zionist out of Cleveland, TN), you must have Church of God roots! ?
no that’s Link Hudson he was their when they started snake handling 🙂 Dake was AG to the bone
Troy Day
That’s news. Are the references calling him Church of God all wrong?
John 9:23 🙂
I thought Link Hudson began as AG. You’re just pulling my leg. ? May be a snake.
Philip Williams I think of five-fold or four-fold like ‘manifold.’ Four aspects to it. That’s how I see it. The term ‘four-fold’ may be an older term, the one used by the CAC movement.
Quaker author Robert Barclay, a contemporary of Georgia Fox, recorded the Quaker belief in his day of the continuation of Ephesians 4:11 ministries: http://www.qhpress.org/texts/barclay/apology/prop10.html
Troy Day I went to an A/G when I was really little, then again in middle and high school. I spent maybe a year in the COG in my senior year in high school. My dad wanted to go there. I finished out the Bible quiz year at the A/G I’d been going to. I have spent maybe 2 years in GBIs in Indonesia, which is affiliated with the COG (Cleveland) but most of them are more Charismatic in terms of style, but a culturally Indonesian version of it.
I got the impression Troy was COG when I first got here, partly because of his posts on sanctification, so I’d mention COG every once in a while, so he must have thought of me as COG.
I went to a Congregational Holiness for a couple of years in colege.
Philip Williams Is the Ohio Valley church you mentioned the Arian anti-beard group?
Link Hudson THE capital English letter transliteration from back before the Internet is a historic internet archive of the very essential B-Greek internet mailing list that has been going on for over 30 years now. It was established and run by virtually ALL US universities chairs of Greek linguistic departments After a few years other universities around the globe joined in The reason we publisized those historic email discussions is that
– they represent in fact every major university that had some valuable Greek program in the past half century in America and most of their Chairs – meaning the top dogs in Biblical Greek we ever had
– it has been consulted by every major Bible translator out there including the Bible societies ABS BFBS UBS and so on even to the point of including many of their notes in the last FOUR editions of NA which are used by just about ANY major translation out there since the early 1990s
– it has been said to carry (in some cases) more authority than BDAG itself, I am sure you are familiar with
WHILE I dont expect you to understand the importance of these discussions in the field of Biblical Greek I do expect you not to devalue them based on your personal lack of understanding which goes against the rules and ethics of this very group. As for Darbys notes on his translation they are in french – a language required for any major field of PhD theology You can of course disregard any of the above and resort to your own private interpretation of the Biblical text just like you’ve done thus far in your bapticostla theology 🙂
http://probible.net/
I did not take a dig at the B-Greek list. I knew someone who used to be on it way back when, and he had good insights. But it is hard to read, and if you have a point to make, it makes sense to quote the relavent section, rather than have us wade through pages of transliteration and arguments and try to guess which stance you agree with. If you want to communicate with the list, you would need to explain and comment, not just link. My guess is most people here don’t read Greek or Hebrew.
Philip Williams In his paper on APOSTOLIC PRACTICE Vinson Synan names Irving and Darby among others It is, however, the teaching of Edward Irving and advent of the Catholic Apostolic Church in 1832 that marks the earliest known movement of what is commonly labeled as fivefold ministry.The church ordained twelve apostles and had specific understandings of the roles of prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
https://www.regent.edu/acad/schdiv/docs/faculty/synan/Apostolic_practice_Synan.pdf
Troy Day I’m familiar with Synan’s early work. Haven’t done any research in this for the last 25 years. Maybe more resources available than I know.
I have not read nothing new on Edward Irving He is a settled case for Pentecostal history IMO Some connect the Russian tongue-speaking Mollokans who later moved to LA and spoke in tongues there prior to 1906 to some Russians who worked in England picked up on the Irving’s revival and tongues and carried them back to Russia as religious faith practice BUT WHO KNOWS for sure 🙂
Troy Day Is there any evidence from the group that went to Irving’s church or the Catholic Apostolic Church meetings after he died going back and influencing the Molokans?
A quote that mentions Irving says,
“In the 19th century, a restorationist movement began in Britain with the avowed purpose of restoring all aspects of New Testament Christianity to the modern church. Led
by such people as Lewis Way, John Nelson Darby and Edward Irving, these and others pioneered a restoration of the charismata (such as glossolalia and prophecy) in London. ”
It almost seems to associate Darby with the charismata. Was he always cessationist?
Link Hudson ? though there were plenty of beards in the earliest days.
I reviewed Jon Ruthven’s book with him a few years ago. There are so many problems with contemporary Apostles, not the least of which the Apostles are the foundation of our faith. If we got Apostles today, we got a new foundation. The very idea of that is apostasy.
I knew C Peter Wagner. I liked the man, but he was certainly no Apostle. Professor is a better description of Peter.
I reviewed Jon Ruthven’s book with him a few years ago. There are so many problems with contemporary Apostles, not the least of which the Apostles are the foundation of our faith. If we got Apostles today, we got a new foundation. The very idea of that is apostasy.
I knew C Peter Wagner. I liked the man, but he was certainly no Apostle. Professor is a better description of Peter.
Does anyone know the root of the NAR practice of apostles issuing ‘apostolic decrees’? I heard of one pastor in the movement commenting that a husband should not be ‘decreeing’ over his wife because he was not a pastor or an apostle. I remember Peter Wagner stated a ‘decree’ at the Todd Bentley ordination thing on YouTube.
It seems like ‘decreeing’ is a big deal in that movement. Is it all based on the verses about the mountain in the sea and the mulbury bush? Is there an actual attempt to tie apostles having a special role in making decrees to the Bible somehow?
Philip Williams you must have known him earlier in the 90s when he was still working with us out of Fuller A lot changed in recent years especially after his network reached internationally with the power to bestow upon others Lots of errors there of course
Troy Day I think it was about 2006 when he visited for about 1 week. He wanted to move his ministry from Colorado Springs to someplace near Statesville, NC. So Chuck Pierce flew in to join us for one day. Every few minutes, Pierce would spin around with some new prophecy. That was based on some prophecy. Interesting, Bob Jones had moved to Statesville based on another prophecy concerning one of my friends, a farmer. But Peter’s prophecy concerned the transfer of wealth. That was the first that I had ever heard of that. I found him to be an humble man. I liked him, but I sensed that he was being manipulated in this new prophecy. It was due to the sort of sorcery shared by many of the Kansas City Prophets.
Troy Day Peter is actually a sociologist, not so different from my friend Harvey Cox.
Philip Williams You had mentioned AG Garr.
Link Hudson
My childhood church.
Link Hudson my grandmother helped establish a Church of God in the forties, my parents an Assembly of God around the same time. My mother received the baptism though the laying on of hands of Canadian Assembly of God leader Robert McAllister. I know Charles Parham’s only granddaughter. My Sunday School teacher was formerly a famous snake handler. My father’s closest seeker friend was Oneness. I know Little David Walker, whose ministry launched the mid-century healing revival, giving William Branham and Oral Roberts their launch pad. Also exploited by Gordon Lindsay, the first story of his Voice of Healing. I knew Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, and other leaders of the Charismatic renewal. So, I kinda know the Spirit-filled stream of Christians.
Oh yes, my friend, the late Jay Ferris introduced me to Nate Krupp and your house church movement.
RT Andrew T. Stube
Apostle is just another word for missionary.
I would tend to disagree with this notion
Barnabas was a missionary but not an apostle in this sense
PAULA!!!
is a missionary ?
contrary to Wagner, there is no “gift of apostle”. The man is given a calling, and becomes a gift to the church. The NT has 4 different kinds of apostles: Jesus Himself, the 12 with Matthias, Paul, and about a dozen others who were (and continue to be) church-planting missionaries. They do NOT travel to churches to do signs & wonders (or brag about them) and get big offerings.
Do the NAR apostles do miracles in churches?
Read the New Testament. Ask Paula White
why? Is Paula going to answer ?
Troy Day she recently posted she is an apostle
Nora Neel-Toney yes I agree with you but Link Hudson wrote the exact quote was apostolic not apostle I heard different in the 5/5 sunday sermon
Troy Day she just announced that she is an apostle
give us a Link where it is written or she says it
I just read the quote from the OP. Was there a linj to the video on the page somewhere? Could you share it and the minute marker?
Troy Day I saw it here on FB.
Whoever is writing this is so confused. My my my. Apostleship is NOT listed as a gift, it’s listed as an office. The office of the Prophet is not the same as the gift of Prophecy. The office of the Apostle is listed and there is No gift of Apostle. Whew this is strange writing.
Steve Losee called it the gift of apostle I was thinking the same thing Where does Wagner call it a gift?
In the title of his bestselling book THE GIFT OF APOSTLE. Many do the same thing, misunderstanding Eph. 4:11 as a list of charismatic giftings like Rom 12 6-8 and 1 Cor. 12: 7-10.
Steve Losee could you place an Amazon link to this so called bestselling book THE GIFT OF APOSTLE? Do you mean the book by by David Cannistraci forwarded by him
Oh, sorry; that’s right. He promoted it so much I remembered it incorrectly.
But in his “spiritual gifts” questionaire, he lists it as a “gift”, along with “teaching”, “evangelism” etc.
where can we see this questionaire?
If you research the word “missionary,” it has its origins in the latinized word from which we get the Greek word for apostle. So, anyone claiming to be a missionary today is claiming to be an apostle, and is doing the work of an apostle.
Some who do im the title do medical work, etc.
The latin word for missionary is missionis The word “mission” originates from 1598 when the Jesuits sent members abroad, derived from the Latin missionem (nom. missio), meaning “act of sending” or mittere, meaning “to send”. The term is most commonly used for Christian missions, but can be used for any creed or ideology. So, anyone claiming to be a missionary today is not claiming to be an apostle I personally know many who dont claim it
Troy Day you’ve not taken it to the next step. The Latin word for missionary is based on the Greek word for apostle.
The term apostle is derived from Classical Greek ἀπόστολος (apóstolos), meaning “one who is sent off”, from στέλλειν (“stellein”), “to send” + από (apó), “off, away from”.[1] The literal meaning in English is therefore an “emissary” (from the Latin mittere, “to send”, and ex, “from, out, off”.)
These are all the same word linguistically. And while not all missionaries would claim to be apostles, they do such out of ignorance about the origin of words.
The Latin word for missionary is based on the Greek word for apostle. – and this is where you need to show quite more proof than just apostolos vs misio – the word misio in Latin means much more than apostolos ex. missio Dei
Troy Day This isn’t very hard to figure out. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/apostle
actually it is not that simple – certainly not as simple as using Wiki – how would you translate missio Dei in English?
Troy Day Dude, just look it up in the Latin Vulgate.
which one? Stutgartiana? Philip Williams do you believe that the very catholic jerome translating Vulgate on the notion of the pope truly meant in his translation that Peter and pope as apostolic see were but two missionaries?
This is so basic – I was taught this at Lee College in 1969. Apostles were missionaries sent forth.
I have a split minor degree in Christian Education and in Missionology from the prestigious Lee University.
Charles Page I think its called Missiology
Are you sure you are not missio-no-logical?
Troy Day I stand corrected
Jimmy Humphrey This is 1 Cor 1:1 in the Vulgate
1 Paulus vocatus Apostolus Jesu Christi per voluntatem Dei, et Sosthenes frater,
I wonder WHY Jerome did not used the latin word for missionary you mentioned
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/vul/co1001.htm#001
I think it isused of apostles orher tgan the 12 or Paul’s team-Corinthians who delivered money. What about Epaphrus or Epaphroditus?
If they were around we would have seen a repeat of Book of Acts or its continuity
Men who brought the Gospel to new regions and people groups sere refered to as ‘aposltes. Patrick as apostle to Ireland. Gregory to Armenia. Cyril and Methodius to the Slavs, Bulgars, etc. Most where sppointedas monarchical bishop. I seem to recall Methodius was but Cyril may have died younger.
this must be the eastern interpretation
In the west the only apostolic see was the Pope or am I wrong about that Philip Williams ?
Troy Day i think you are wrong about that. Pattly a different usage, and aside from Cyril, typically these men were recognized as bishops in the RCC. Armenia was early. I have read that the bishop of Rome approved or appointed Methodius. Rome would claim Patrick too at least later. At one point later the king of Northumbria would side with Rome over Ireland for the paschal date. Were the 12 apostles of Ireland all bishops? The term retained a missionary church planter meaning in some contexts.
Link Hudson not really While there was an attempt on part of RCC to use the slavic apostles this was never finalized As a matter of fact the 4th crusade was a total rejection of RCC on the Balkans – you should read king Baldwin’s story on that As far as the RCC is concern they only recognize the Pope as apostolic see – this is pretty clear I think
nevertheless the words for missionary and apostle in the Vulgate are clearly different as used by Jerome – there is no need for further proof to attest that apostolo and mittare/missionis had different meanings though the words may have ones derived from similar active roots
You should know this well speaking languages – just because 1 word mean 1 think in language 1 and another means similar in language 2 does NOT mean their exact meanings are transmitted in language 3 – this is so true with the word APOSTLE especially as used by Wagner in NAR
Troy Day if the word is fitting for a missionary who introduced the gospel to a particular nation, we must not suppose them the kind of Apostles who delivered the faith once and for all time to the saints. For example, whAt churches did James and John ever plant? But weren’t they Jesus’s chosen Apostles?
I think you just proved my point Philip Williams Thank you – I was going to give examples of English words that dont mean nothing close to their other language derivatives but what you said basically proves the same
Troy Day I was actually addressing that to Link Hudson, who often seems to conflate these. I have often asked him why missionary isn’t a more honest term for what he means by ‘Apostle?’
Clearly none of these missionaries possessed the same authority as the Apostles who gave us the Word of God.
and I’ve seen plenty of the so called missionaries who go to ready already build and active for years churches abroad, act like they have apostolic authority and split them right in the middle forever but what do I know?
Troy Day Cyril and Methodius were pre-Great-Schism, so I am not sure your point.
I don’t have a copy of the Vulgate, and I am operating from memory here. I believe it uses the word from which we get ‘missionary’ to translate apostolos in some context or contexts– maybe the ‘apostles’ of the Corinthian church who delivered money, not the twelve apostles. Is that in chapter 9?
https://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=1503
Philip Williams I believe we should use Biblical terms for Biblical things– elders, if there are those qualified and appointed by the Holy Ghost as overseers, rather than having ‘zone leaders’ or ‘grand pubas’ or something like that,
Does the Spirit ever speak to send men of God out on a mission to evangelize and plant churches? What is wrong with recognizing them as apostles– not as an honorific title– but recognizing the gift in them?
As far as churches James and John planted, didn’t the 12 help lay the foundation of the church in Jerusalem?
Link Hudson, you are right that Christ has only one church, but that means that these missionaries to various nations cannot be the Apostles who laid the foundation of Christ’s Church. Thus, however wonderful may be their work and example, we don’t use their teachings and acts to Ryle matters for the church as a whole.
Philip Williams If the Spirit speaks, sending some brethren to go evangelize an unreached village, who lays the foundation of Christ there?
Link Hudson the Spirit who builds the Church is Jesus.
Troy Day ‘MIssionary’ is also used for some Christian foreign aid workers, too. It is not the exactly equivalent of the Biblical usage of ‘apostle’. Either. To be an apostle, one also has to be sent. There are apostles of churches. The Spirit sent out Paul and Barnabas, and Paul and his co-authors Silvanus and Timothy referred to themselves as apostles of Christ. Jesus designated 12 as apostles and sent them out with instructions to preach and heal.
Link Hudson you appear to ignore the difference in those Apostles who Jesus used to plant his church and those ‘apostles’ who spread their gospel. The latter can never have the same authority as the former. The authority of the NT Scriptures coms solely from those writings being theses Apostle’vtestimony, Acts, and Teachings? They literally had Jesus authority for teaching the whole church, something that cannot be claimed of any of your church planting Apostles but Paul and those working with him.
Link Hudson I am not sure how any of this helps your point or explains OP but oh well You do need to read on your history esp. 4th crusade – king Baldwin and his mission
The great schism is the final separation of the east and west that began much much earlier By the 8-9 centuries, the 3 language dogma was already in operation and the Western church was fighting for influence via the crusades
The term Slavorum Apostoli was first used by the polish slavic Pope John Paul II Please note that he too in latin used the word apostle – not missiones; which is exactly my point – 2 completely different things with obvious different meanings
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6348
Philip Williams Barnabas did not write any books of the New Testament. Do you think he had the same authority as Paul?
The twelve had a specific role. So did Paul.
Troy Day Constantinople did not have any special claim over Ireland, and Patrick is called the apostle of Ireland, and there were 12 who were called apostles of Ireland.
Link Hudson clearly, not the same calling , but nonetheless very important for connecting Paul to the church in Jerusalem.
Link Hudson didn’t the Lord use a dream to send Patrick back to Ireland?
Philip Williams According to what are accepted as his own writings yes.
Link Hudson that Barnabas wrote no books of the NT is an indication that his calling was to recognize revelation rather than be the Instrument. The former is the calling and responsibility of all saints.
Link Hudson and by what else can we possibly know his calling?
Link Hudson you served as missionary right? Did anyone recognize you as apostle while you were a missionary?
I’ve had the missionary ‘word’ spoken over me before. I started preaching while living overseas. I was not sent by an agency.
And if someone were posting on this forum had been, which I was not, he might not post such information on your website for everyone to see. Just saying.
Only a monstrous ego given by Satan himself would cause someone today to compare themselves to being on the same level as the Apostles of the Bible. But we do see plenty of them.
Are there apostles today ………YES…………………READ………….Eph 4:10 He JESUS that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) …(NOTE)
Eph 4:11 And he gave SOME APOSTLES; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Nope, no “apostles”. Unless they are 2020 years old…??
I’ve heard some Pentecostals say there are, meaning there are still those who go out and start up churches. But I haven’t heard any saying there are in the way Paul was, for example. I think it may be a more Charismatic Pente and Apostolic who hold to that? But the Apostolic DO mean more like Paul was?
a bit mix up in terminology here IMHO Pentecostal and Charismatic is not one and the same NAR is not really Pentecostal only Apostolic is usually reserved for the Jesus-only UPC who consider themselves Pentecostal but doubtfully Charismatic